Learning Japanese
 
Best way to learn to read Japanese?
 
Posted By: Tim Hortman <thortman@epix.net>
Date: Sunday, 12 November 2000, at 10:08 a.m.
Hey Gang,
I have a question that has been on my mind for a while. This may have been covered in the past, but I don't recall where.
Does anyone have some thoughts on the best way to learn to read Japanese? I'm like everyone else here who has invested hundreds of dollars in reference material that I can't read. I know that there are many kind folks here who offer to translate for us, but how difficult is it to learn?
Any thoughts??
TIA,
Tim
 
Posted By: Rob Graham <reishikisenguy@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2000, at 7:39 p.m.
 
In Response To: Best way to learn to read Japanese? (Tim Hortman)
 
Tim:
I'd REALLY like to echo George's sentiments! So true. The more you put in, the more you get out.
The Japanese use three writing styles: Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji.
Hiragana is the most basic and is learned in pre-school. It's easy to pick up, and is used to write Japanese words almost exclusively; I'd compare it to cursive writing, and each character is a syllable. The characters look (typically) quite like curlicues and such. Often, these are arranged from left to right, as seems the modern method of typesetting, but right to left is also common, as on the right side of vehicles.
Katakana is much like Hiragana in that it is syllabic and easy to learn. That's where the similarity ends. Katakana is used almost exclusively to write foreign words and the characters look like simplified Kanji (often like a diagonal slash stroke). I read this, as it is easy to pick out the English or other words in the text. So I can see words like "engine" (E N JI N), etc. Arrangement of the characters is the same as Hiragana.
Kanji is (literally translated, "Chinese characters”) the complex many-stroke (well, 1-20 or more) characters. I think that if you can sight-recognize 200-300, that helps a lot. I'd recommend learning the basic ones like Greg says, as they are often building blocks and are fun to use at the Chinese and Japanese restaurants. I impressed a Malaysian co-worker by reading some ads in a Chinese newspaper. I could tell what was on sale. But there's no one to practice with, so the skill has atrophied... But, older texts go top to bottom in columns from the right to the left.
I am sure that you could learn Katakana in a matter of days, 2 weeks TOPS. I got it in a weekend, and honed my skill in 2 weeks. I started off by writing my name, etc. FUN at parties! Just imagine, Chi-Mu Ho-TsuMaN, that if you drop the u sound, you'd have "Cheem Hotsman." I Romanji spelled the Katakana for your name.
What else is cool about Katakana first for a Westerner is that you learn about pronunciation of Japanese. I am SURE that my ability to read and pronounce the Katakana was what enabled me to be understood by my Okinawan and Japanese friends, though my vocabulary was limited. But I could at least meet them half-way and not say the same mispronounced word OVER AND OVER AND OVER... How embarrassing!
Anyway, I also agree that Japanese grammar is among the easiest in the world. Syntax is consistent, and (unlike German) it doesn't have gerund participles and all those confusing cases. German is a nice language, but it's tough for grammar, harder than English by a long shot. When the teacher says, "well, if you LIVED there, you'd know," then you know you signed up for a hard class. Japanese is much easier, and I really like it for its simple economy and elegance. You can learn Japanese at home, but it's the "keeping up with it" part that's hard to do.
Try it, you'll like it. I'm sure you'll take it in and (as I did) learn a new appreciation of the Japanese culture. Study the character shapes, and you see natural images that the characters mimic. I'm NOT making this up!
Enough of my rambling...
--Rob
 
Posted By: Rob Graham <reishikisenguy@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 14 November 2000, at 8:44 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Best way to learn to read Japanese? - Thanks! (Tim Hortman)
 
Tim:
I recommend taking a class at a college to learn the language. Tapes, books, all that stuff (I think) supports the language, but I think it would be best to start off learning from someone who has been there and spoken it well for years, as an instructor should have.
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Tuesday, 14 November 2000, at 12:05 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Best way to learn to read Japanese? (Rob Graham)
 
Konnichi wa Tim and Rob,
Rob: Domo for your words. Did you know that Katakana are called Male and Hiragana called Female? Why? Because they were used by males and females. I stumbled on a document of the war, written by males and it was written in Katakana and Kanji !
I would like to add a lot of things on the Japanese language but I guess it would look like we started giving lessons or something. Just a little more.... Do you have any idea what the words "redy fasto" might mean? I would like to add also that both Hiragana and Katakana are taught within 3-4 weeks in schools. That there is no plural form/endings, so you can say "teburu" (table) and can mean one or many. That there is the difficulty of using different forms of words or even different words to show politeness according to occasions and that there are words used only by females and words only for the males. Extremely interesting cultural stuff.
Tim: For learning the language to a basic communication level, but not writing, I recommend the "Colloquial Japanese" set with tape by Routledge.
Domo,
George
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sunday, 12 November 2000, at 1:07 p.m.
 
In Response To: Best way to learn to read Japanese? (Tim Hortman)
 
Hi Tim,
I can't read Japanese text but for short inscriptions in kanji I have a New Nelson Japanese/English Character Dictionary, Andrew Nelson & John Haig, Charles E. Tuttle Co. ISBN 0-8048-2036-8. I paid $50 for mine at B. Dalton. You find a character by counting the strokes needed to draw it. Each character has a basic picture element called a 'radical'. There are 218 of these arranged in a table. I don't want to make it sound simple. It isn't, but it's logical and with enough practice you will memorize around 100 radicals that will speed up your search. There is an excellent tutorial on how to use the system and many other appendices to help out the user. I swear by mine. A bonus is that individual characters have the same meaning in Chinese so I can translate the names of all the restaurants in my neighborhood!
Cheers!
Greg
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Sunday, 12 November 2000, at 2:09 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Best way to learn to read Japanese? (Greg Springer)
 
Dictionaries......hmmm let me see.
1) The Kanji Dictionary by Tuttle ISBN 0804820589, is big and quite difficult to use, but one of the best.
2) A guide to Writing Kanji and Kana by Tuttle in 2 volumes ISBNs 0804816859 and 0804816867. A most helpful edition. Very easy to use, with calligraphy, printed and usual way of writing Kanji. Recommended.
3) Essential Kanji by Weatherhill ISBN 0834802228. A shorter, handier, cheaper dictionary than the previous with about the same contents.
4) Japanese-English Learner's dictionary by Merriam Webster ISBN 0877791643. Price about 30$. Excellent dictionary not only for Kanji but to use in order to learn the language. Recommended.
5) Sunrise Japanese-English Dictionary by Obunsha ISBN 401075009X. THE dictionary. A MUST. Being looking for a dictionary like this for years. Might be difficult to find outside Japan. Price: got mine 500 (five hundred) Yen in a second hand bookstore in Japan!
6) Shogakusei no Kanji jiten (the dictionary for elementary students) by Shogakukan ISBN 4095018534. Price 1300 Yen. The most useful dictionary I have ever found on Kanji. You can't get anything more helpful. Difficult to trace outside Japan, though.
Ganbare,
George
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Sunday, 12 November 2000, at 11:57 a.m.
 
In Response To: Best way to learn to read Japanese? (Tim Hortman)
 
Konnichi wa Tim (Hello Tim),
it took me about 7-8 years to learn to speak and understand Japanese, to a satisfactory level. I believe I need another 4-5 years in Japan to reach a proficiency level. The grammar is VERY easy, the pronunciation too (if you have a background of Latin or ancient Greek from school helps a lot). The only difficulty lies in the volume of completely new words, which is not so frightening.
Reading Japanese is another thing. It completely depends on you. You can learn how to read and don't mind about pronunciation. It can take you from 2 to 22 years to learn the 2.500 necessary Kanji. It's really up to your memory and will. To make you feel better, Chinese use more than 5.000 kanji.
What I learned after many years of study is that Japanese is not just another language to learn. You need to have a feeling about both the language and the people. Preferably an admiration/respect feeling. I'll be glad to help you somehow if you ever decide to start learning.
Domo (thanks)
George
 
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