-
Kawasaki Ki-45
"Nick" Part 2
-
- Topics:
- Unusual
Ki-45 Toryu
- Ki-45 37mm questions
-
-
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Monday, 28 October 2002, at 6:56 a.m.
-
- on
page 115 of Model Art 329 (Army Fighters, 1989) there is a b/w
illustration by Hasegawa Ichiro san of a very unusual Ki-45. The photo
caption reads:
- "Upper
surface Natural Metal Finish, lower surfaces kuroi (black), Model Hei
belonging to the 5th Sentai, Showa 20 (1945) (can't read the name of the
base).
- In
order to improve wind resistance and climbing characteristics the paint of
the upper surfaces together with the radio mast were removed from this
plane. Nose and rudder were painted red with the marking and the
"letters" in white."
-
- Maki
Koichi san repeats the same in the photo caption of page 52 of the old
blue cover FAOW (No.26, June 1972). NMF upper, Black lower.
-
- Nohara
Shigeru san folows with a color profile of the plane on pages 61, 62 of
the old Maru Mechanic, No.11, 1978. As above, upper surfaces are depicted
as NMF, lower as Black.
-
- Nevertheless,
on page 49 of FAOW 21 (1990) Nohara san says that the plane was painted
ANKASHOKU (Dark Brown) overall, then the paint of the upper surfaces was
removed. The reason was that the plane belonged to Sentaicho Yamashita
Yoshiaki and he wanted his plane to be easily recognizable in the air. But
since it wasn't really camouflaged that way there were complaints from
high ranking officers. He also mentions that as can be seen from the
photos at page 48, there were more planes with similar paint scheme
(middle of upper photo, first plane from the right lower photo) and they
belonged to the Sentai Hombu (H/Q).
-
- What
I see is that the engine nacelles (FAOW 21, p.49, upper photo) are painted
in a much brighter color than the underside of the fuselage. Could it be
that the fuselage underside was painted Black while the nacelles were left
in their Dark Brown?
- In
the bottom photo of the same book, I can barely see some color difference
between the nacelle and the rest of the wing but in the middle photo the
wing root looks a lot darker than the rest of the wing. Could it be
because of the angle of the light in the middle photo or both the upper
and lower surfaces of the wing were left in their Red Brown scheme?
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Monday, 28 October 2002, at 11:03 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- As
you may remember, I intend to do one of the two Ki-45 models you sent me
in this unique scheme. Besides the references you mention, there is also a
color art profile in MM#44 that shows this a/c as NMF upper and black
lower. Nohara san may claim that the color was dark brown, but I'm sure
that is merely conjecture. While I wish it was NMF with black underside,
because that would look very cool, my conjecture is that the lower side is
most likely dark green with the top side stripped to NMF.
-
- I
don't think that there were several a/c in this scheme. I believe that the
Nick in the top photo on p 48 (FAOW 21) is the same a/c as the one
pictured on p 49.
-
- I
also have my doubts that the Nick in the lower photo on p 48 is another
Ki-45 in the same scheme. I wonder if it isn't the same Nick shown on the
bottom of p 45 (both have their starboard side engine cowling off for
repair).
-
- I
believe that the dark wing root fairing is a trick of the light, and that
the nacelles in the top photo p 49 are not actually a lighter color but
just reflecting the sun light.
-
- That
the paint was stripped to improve performance is plausible; reduces both
weight and drag. But it makes more sense to me that this may have been
done for recognizability. After all, this is a rather loud and dramatic
scheme to be called camouflage. As for the antenna mast being removed, the
antenna masts have been removed from all the 5 F Nicks in that group.
-
- Of
course, all of this is just armchair speculation on my part.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 3:24 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- VERY
interesting subject this one!!! Personnally, I think that the painting
instructions in Hasegawa´s Toryu kit CP4 aren´t that far off - just the
upper side of the fuselage is shown as nmf here, the upper surfaces of the
wing remain in the same "Kawasaki Green" as the bottom of the
plane.
- All
illustration of 5. Sentai Toryus of this vintage I´ve seen so far show
them in the "Dark Olive Green" scheme, not the red-brown we
often see on the illustrations of planes operated by the 27. Sentai in the
Philippines for example.
- The
reasoning for this is unknown to me, supposedly this is based on the
recollections of surviving veteras of the unit - the 5. Sentai apparrently
suffered very few losses during their home defence operations.
- Anyway,
the dark wing root suggests that the upper surface of the wings were left
in the factory scheme as well, the reflective properties of the
"cleaned" upper fuselage would suffice to provide immediate
recognition in the air, I suppose.
- I
don´t really give too much on the tonal values of monochrome photos
anymore, too much depends on the type of film, exposure, lighting
conditions etc. to deduce the actual colour from such photos.
- But
to me it doesn´t seem to make sense to strip the original paint from the
whole airframe and then repaint the bottom in black, let alone overpaint
the previous camouflage colour in another layer of black that would add
even more weight to the airframe.
- Oh,
and please do note the "thin wire" antenna arrangement on the
plane in the upper photo on page 48, remember the Ki-46 in China,
George?!?
- While
I do like the idea of the nose and rudder being red I somehow think they
were simply left in the previous green colour again.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:29 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Joern Leckscheid)
-
- Like
you, I agree that the painting instructions of Hasegawa´s Toryu kit CP4
aren´t that far off. But I don't agree with their notion that the top
side of the wings were left dark olive green. I draw my conclusion from
the fact that the tops of the horizontal stabilizers were stripped to NMF
like the fuselage. And in the bottom photo on page 49 (FAOW#21), I can see
the demarcation between the NMF and the darker painted area around the top
of the nacelle.
-
- You
wrote:
- "the
dark wing root suggests that the upper surface of the wings were left in
the factory scheme as well."
-
- That
was my original thought too, and this photographic detail does pose a
conundrum. Also, I'm sure this is the detail that tipped the scales for
the folks at Hasegawa to call for the wing tops to be painted green. But
again, I think this is merely a trick of the light. The photo that shows
the wing root as dark is a distant shot of the port side, while another
photo that is a very close shot of the starboard side wing root appears to
show a NMF. Of course it seems highly unlikely that the port wing would be
painted while the starboard wing was NMF. So I conclude that the dark wing
root is a lighting fluke in that particular shot.
-
- I
agree totally that confirming tonal values from monochrome photos is too
unreliable, if not down right impossible, due to all the factors involved.
I know of b&w photos that make yellow IFF look almost black, and
darkly painted a/c that look like NMF, and Hinomarus on a particular a/c
appear black in one shot while appearing almost white in the next shot.
Extreme apparent variations caused by no more than the angle of the light
from one shot to the other.
-
- You
wrote:
- "to
me it doesn't seem to make sense to strip the original paint from the
whole airframe and then repaint the bottom in black, let alone overpaint
the previous camouflage colour in another layer ofblack that would add
even more weight to the airframe."
-
- I
think you have a valid point here. But then, the Japanese didn't seem to
have a problem with the idea of adding weight to their a/c because of
overpainting. They often overpainted; and often laid it on very thick and
sloppy. But if you were going to strip an entire a/c and then repaint any
of it, painting the bottom would be the biggest pain in the a**.
Personally, I think that just leaving the bottom in the original dark
olive green makes the most sense. Especially when one considers that
stripping the bottom of the a/c (like painting) would be twice as hard as
stripping the top side. (Have you ever had to strip, paint, or repair a
ceiling? Man, that sucks!)
-
- You
wrote:
- "While
I do like the idea of the nose and rudder being red I somehow think they
were simply left in the previous green colour again."
-
- This
too makes sense to me. But then (and I know that this flies in the face of
what I wrote above about inferring color from these old b&w's) There
does seem to be a tonal difference between the lower color and the rudder
color, while the rudder color appears to be exactly the same as the
Hinomarus in all the photos. Also, the nose and rudder would be the
easiest and the most likely areas to paint if you were going to add red.
And if the point was to be noticeable... Well, this scheme is that.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:27 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- let
me try to disagree with you in order to search for the truth.
- Maybe
the Dark Brown of Nohara san is a conjecture. Why do you say that the
color is Dark Green? On what do you base your conjecture?
- The
plane in the top photo of page 48 is too small to judge (those who have
examined the actual photo may know better) but I see that its rudder
doesn't appear to be red and that there are planes parked around it that
don't appear in the photos of p.49.
- I
don't know about the plane appearing in the lower photo of p.48.
- Regarding
"the nacelles...reflecting the sun light" in the top photo of
p.49. Please notice the shadow of the propeler on the right nacelle
meaning that the sun must have been somewhere above and to the front of
the plane. But also notice that the right nacelle is lit while the left
nacelle is in shade. This means that the sun is to the front and right
side of the plane. But if the sun was positioned like that I don't
understand why the nacelle looks so bright while the undersides of the
fuselage look so dark.
- Furtheremore,
the color of the nacelles looks closer to the Hinomaru than the underside
of the fuselage. If the nacelles are dark green and look so bright because
of the sun light, then the Hinomaru would look a lot brighter, wouldn't
it.
- Compare
also the color of the right nacelle to the color of the propeler and
spinner.
- I'm
toying with the sun position and the shades here, I know. Your thoughts?
-
- I
believe too that the plane was stripped to make it more easily
recognizable.
- Yes,
all planes have their radio masts removed. It was a translation mistake in
my part. As I have told you long time ago, there is no "-s" to
indicate the plural form in the Japanese language. So "hikoki"
might mean one or a lot of airplanes. Therefore my mistake. Sorry.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:26 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Joern
responded before I got the chance, and he answered pretty much as I would
have. (I'll respond to Joern's post seperately). It's fun to speculate,
and that's all my following responses are...
-
- You
wrote:
- "Why
do you say that the color is Dark Green? On what do you base your
conjecture?"
-
- The
same thing as Nohara san; personal opinion. Well, that and the fact that
dark olive green appears to have been a far more common color for Nicks.
So I'm going with the odds and my gut instinct.
-
- You
wrote:
- "Regarding
"the nacelles...reflecting the sun light" in the top photo of
p.49. Please notice the shadow of the propeller on the right nacelle
meaning that the sun must have been somewhere above and to the front of
the plane. But also notice that the right nacelle is lit while the left
nacelle is in shade. This means that the sun is to the front and right
side of the plane. But if the sun was positioned like that I don't
understand why the nacelle looks so bright while the undersides of the
fuselage look so dark."
-
- Because
the sun is almost directly above the a/c and the bottom is in shadow.
-
- You
wrote:
- "the
color of the nacelles looks closer to the Hinomaru than the underside of
the fuselage."
-
- In
which photo? It varies from photo to photo.
-
- You
wrote:
- "If
the nacelles are dark green and look so bright because of the sun light,
then the Hinomaru would look a lot brighter, wouldn't it."
-
- Not
necessarily. I agree with Joern, that one cannot verify conclusions about
color from monochrome photos for all the reasons he sites. I have seen too
many photos of dark colored a/c that look like light colored a/c because
of a trick of the light on the old films.
-
- Compare
also the color of the right nacelle to the color of the propeller and
spinner.
-
- To
me, this just confirms my original observations.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Nick Millman
- Date:
Thursday, 31 October 2002, at 6:07 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- There
is a colour photo of an anonymous Nick at Clark Field on page 135 of
Pacific War Eagles.
-
- This
Nick is in good condition and the colour looks more like an olive drab.
It's not really a green per se when one compares the airframe to the grass
surrounding it. I guess some folks would see this "muddy colour"
as a "brownish-green" whilst others might see it as a
"greenish-brown"!
-
- Wear
around the wing roots seems to expose a grey - (hairyokushoku?) - and then
nm. The rear face of the prop blades can be seen as a definite brown in
comparison to the "greyish" olive drab colour.
-
- Don
and Joern
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 6:53 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- of
course it's very difficult, almost impossible to draw conclusions from B/W
photos. We all agree with this. Nevertheless we try to.
- I'm
refering to the photo of FAOW21, p.49, top.
- I
repeat again that the color of the right nacelle (and a bit of the left)
is closer to the Hinomaru, the propeller and spinner and the nose, making
it a much brighter color than the undersides of the fuselage.
- I
repeat again that if the sun was so bright as to make the nacelle, painted
like the undersides, to look so brighter, then the Hinomaru would look a
lot brighter too....
-
- WAIT!!!!
- I
saw something! (SSSAZZAAANNN!!!) I saw the light! I'm cured! I touched the
screen....eeeerr the fold out page of FAOW21! Nohara has a color profile
of the 5th Sentai painted overall green. It's like the planes in pages
46,47,48,52,53,81. They are all Green!!! Just like you said so. I'm finaly
able to reach the highest levels of happiness thanks to you guys!
- But
why does the underside color look THAT dark? Check photo in pages 46,47.
The undersides don't look dark at all. The color looks to be applied in a
very uniform way, from the nose to the tail wheel in p.48, top.
- Well,
I don't know. I'll follow your advices and build a Manchurian Toryu
(?!?!?!?)...someday.
-
- Dark
undersides
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Boerema <ryann1k2j@aol.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 30 October 2002, at 10:40 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Don and Joern (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Re
the argument that it's illogical to paint the underside of a dark plane
black, in Asahi Journal 4,1 p. 20 under an illustration by the above Don
Marsh, Tom Hall says of a dark colored illustrated 53'd Sentai Ki-45 Tei,
"Few of the 53rd's planes were seen in [this] overall brown or olive
scheme. Although called a night camouflage, it was not satisfactory for
the underside of this plane, which was clearly darker and probably
black." and is illustrated as such. His source is Koku Fan 80, pp
111, 113, 126-8, which I'm afraid I don't have, but, if accurate would
suggest that in at least one sentai dark a/c received black bottoms. (IMHO
the bottom of the a/c on p.49, FAOW, is indeed black, there may even be a
demarcation line on the bottom of the port cowling.)
- Incidentally,
the Nick illustrated in Asahi Journal also has a white, or cream fuselage
bandage. What were they thinking?
-
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Schabow <rschabow@attbi.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 2 October 2002, at 7:20 p.m.
-
- I'm
trying to fill in some gaps on the technical specs of the Type 94 tank gun
carried on the Otsu.
-
- I
have that it fires a .460 kg shell at 640 m/s, but I was wondering if
anyone knows how much the complete round weighed and how many rounds were
carried. I imagine that since it was hand loaded, the crew could take as
many or as few as they wanted, but maybe there was a standard.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Thursday, 3 October 2002, at 1:46 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Ki-45 37mm questions (Ryan Schabow)
-
- I
have 644g at 580 m/s for that weapon, from a 37x133R case. By comparison,
the Ho-203 used a 37x112R cartridge (475g at 570 m/s) and the Ho-204 used
the 37x144 (475g at 710 m/s).
-
- Tony
Williams
- Military
gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
- Military
gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions *PIC*
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Schabow <rschabow@attbi.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 9 October 2002, at 5:26 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- Thanks
for the responses, everyone.
-
- Was
there any difference in weight between the AP and HE rounds? I found this
pic on a tank site, and they're pretty different size-wise.
-
- Editors
note: Picture at http://home.attbi.com/~rschabow/tp95-4.jpg
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Sunday, 13 October 2002, at 4:05 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions *PIC* (Ryan Schabow)
-
- The
Japanese tended to "mix and match" the different 37mm case types
with a standard range of projectiles.
-
- The
standard HE projectile for the Type 94 tank gun weighed 644g (mv 580 m/s),
the normal AP (which had a small HE content) weighed 700g (573 m/s). The
AP projectile may be smaller than the HE, but steel weighs much more than
chemicals!
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Friday, 4 October 2002, at 5:38 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Ki-45 37mm questions (Ryan Schabow)
-
- Don't
know the answer to your question but type 2 fighters captured at Noemfoor
Island in 1944 carried the Ho 203. Most were fitted with an 18 round
magazine. One had a 25 round magazine. Allied intel considered the Ho 203
but little improved over the earlier tank cannon.
-
- I
would infer that a hand fed cannon would be unlikely to be armed with more
rounds than an automatic cannon given the difficulties involved in
loading. My guess 10-20 rounds.To be very clear, I have no data that
provides direct evidence to support my guess.
-
- Perhaps
someone else on the board can help us out.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 8:36 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (richard dunn)
-
- That's
interesting Rick; the sources I have say that the Ho-203 had a
continuous-loop "squirrel cage" magazine looking very similar to
the one used by the US 37mm M4 in the P-39, but it held only 15 rounds. I
haven't heard that it was available in different sizes.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Bill Leyh <hawk81@pacbell.net>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 9:49 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- The
original 37mm cannon installation in the P-39C also had a 15 round
magazine.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 10:17 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- Source:
AAF SWPA Intel. Sum. 230, p.4 & T-1, 2 Aug.44
-
- In
addition to a few paragraphs of text this also includes a full page
diagram of the nose section and cannon with 25mm magazine mounted.