Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar" Part 3
Topics:
Drop tank color on Ki-43/JAF planes
Ki-43 Fabric Control Surface Color
Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai *PIC* (New)
Ki-43 III (New)
 
Drop tank color on Ki-43/JAF planes
 
Posted By: Jeff Cadenhead <jcaden3529@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 7:17 p.m.
Wondering what color to paint the drop tanks on the Hasegawa Ki-43.And as far as that goes how about colors for other type JAF a/c? I've seen(and painted) a orange/yellow drop tank for the Ki-61. Is that correct?
 
Re: Drop tank color on Ki-43/JAF planes
Posted By: T. Miyamae <t_miyama@muh.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 10:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Drop tank color on Ki-43/JAF planes (Jeff Cadenhead)
 
I think over three-variant colors used Army Air Force"s drop tanks
They are light-grey-green, mandarin, and blue.
The light grey-green tanks is standard.
The mandarin-color tanks used in some Japanese base (not oversee force) to easy-search for recycling when dropped.
The blue tanks are omitted painting surface color. (blue is primer color).
 
Ki-43 Fabric Control Surface Color
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com>
Date: Sunday, 19 August 2001, at 6:27 a.m.
 
Looking thru a too-large reference library and kit collection, I find "some" references to the control surface color on the Ki-43 as being the "typical" light grey-green on NMF original-production aircraft.
 
This so-called "rule" seems to also be present on other NMF IJAAF aircraft kits/references, esp. the Ki-44 and Ki-49, as well as other IJAAF and IJNAF aircraft.
 
My problem: Examination of numerous photographs show these surfaces to be a lighter, whiter, and more "luminescent" shade than would be logical with the now known to be somewhat darker grey-green, and only consistant with aluminum dope - especially dope which has "chalked" or surface-oxidized, which it tends to do in a few weeks after application.
 
On a number of photos, the reflective nature of the control surfaces and the light/bright shade would almost certainly suggest aluminum dope, especially on the Ki-43 photos I have.
 
Knowing that aluminum dope has long been the standard for anti-UV protection of fabric surfaces, and was used pre-war by most if not all aircraft manufacturers, I wonder what actual proof of this grey-green thesis exists. I could certainly understand the elimination of aluminum powder for economy reasons during the war, and certainly its elimination on camo'd at the factory aircraft, but the photo evidence seems to argue pretty strongly for aluminum dope on NMF aircraft.
 
Can any one direct me to original or primary historical evidence either way ?
 
Re: Ki-43 Fabric Control Surface Color
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 19 August 2001, at 7:41 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-43 Fabric Control Surface Color (Pete Chalmers)
 
With the exception of the rudder fabric from Mitsubishi constructed Zeros (of which fabric samples fall into the FS-16350/24201 color range), the majority of fabric samples from Japanese military aircraft I have examined fall into two categories:
 
1) Doped with an aluminum paint.
 
or
 
2. Doped with a blue-gray shade which generally falls into the FS-x6307 to FS-x6314 range.
 
A Kate and a Val fabric sample examined both had a shade close to FS-x6160 applied (N.B. The "Kate" sample might also be from a Val!). I have examined no fabric surfaces from an aircraft identified as a Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar.
 
In some cases, the aluminum doped fabric surfaces have been overpainted either in trainer yellow or one of the upper surface camouflage colors (i.e. the dark greens).
 
Perhaps someone else has seen the gray-green shade you speak of on original fabric surfaces, but I have not, other than on Mistsubishi constructed Zeros.
Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai *PIC*
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 10 March 2002, at 6:44 a.m.
 
Artist/historian James HOLLOWAY, well known for his superb American Civil War Ironclads and Japanese military aircraft projects, has analyzed a wartime Japanese newsreel. In the film appear several Nakajima Ki-43 Oscars presumably operating over Burma.
 
It is difficult, if at all possible, to analyze the tail markings for color in the b/w film, but James has given it a shot with his water-color scrap views and notes seen below.
 
It is possible that these Oscars could have been in the livery of No.1, No.25 (early), or even No.33 (early) Hiko Sentai. None of the published views from these three hiko sentai seem to properly correlate these unit/s with James' renderings.
 
Many early Japanese AAF units used stripes more for command or position information than as a specific unit I.D.
 
James would like to have any and all feed-back from the members on this MB in order to help him identify this Oscar unit/s. Thank you for any help you may be able to give him.
 
Art: (c) 2002 James Holloway
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-43_unknsentai_hollowayart.jpg
 
Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Sunday, 10 March 2002, at 12:13 p.m.
 
In Response To: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
Jim, these are fascinating!
 
A few questions:
 
Do we have any idea of the period in which the film is shot? Is it definitely in Burma? (For example newsreel footage of Ki-44's of the 87th in Burma includes some shots of Ki-43's of the 48th operating in China!
 
Are the Oscars model Ki-43 I or Ki-43 II?
 
Is the sparse green mottle or paint remnants representative of the aircraft in the film?
 
The tail markings are almost certainly Unit ID rather than command markings and the top three correlate most closely to the style of marking used on 24th Sentai Nates. If so, are we looking at a hitherto unrecorded marking for the 13th Sentai? The bottom two show similarities to 1st Sentai.
 
Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai
 
Posted By: James Holloway
Date: Sunday, 10 March 2002, at 4:28 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai (Nick Millman)
 
To all: first, thanks to James Lansdale for posting the sketch for me, computors and I dont get along. The sketch represents variations of only two aircraft, above and below the line. From what I could get of the film both aircraft are from the same unit,or at least based together, it seems that they have one, two. and maybe three white bands on either a red rudder or green. A brief flying shot seems to show some A/C with a single white band on rudder. The bottom A/C in the sketch looks as tho a white rudder band was painted over. The white could possibly be aluminum. The white bands are much wider than the ones seen in photos of 1st Sentai Oscars. They are much closer to 10 Hiko Sentai Nates. Top a/c has a red(blue?) combat stripe and looks like a red band in between the white, it's tone matches both the combat stripe and hinomaru, and is noticably darker than the camoflauge. It doesn't match fron tail to rudder, the rudder could be a replacement, Both a/c are heavily weathered from an irregulary applied sqiggle, some a/c appearing more solid than others. They are Oscar 2's, and I think they are shot either over China or Japan, not Burma. The announcer mentions the 64th Sentai ,but I think he may have been referring to it being a well known Hayabusa unit rather than saying these a/c belong to the 64th. At this time I'm leaning towards one to two bands on a red or green rudder, but I am completely open to other opinions.
 
Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai
 
Posted By: Robert Anderson <av98us@msn.com>
Date: Sunday, 10 March 2002, at 10:03 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai (James Holloway)
 
I haven't seen the film, but these could be the markings of post-war Nationalist Chinese (blue and white bands) or Indonesian (red/white bands) Oscars as these planes flew for both. You would see other national markings, though. Could they also be puppet air force or home training units? Just brainstorming...
 
Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Saturday, 16 March 2002, at 1:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Oscars Over Burma: Unknown Sentai (James Holloway)
 
To take the suggested units one by one.
 
I agree the stripes on the rudder do not match the style and position of those used by the 1st Sentai. In addition there is no evidence that the 1st Sentai used a horizontal band on the fin ahead of the rudder.
 
The 10th Independent Chutai became the 25th Sentai , with only two Chutai, on 25th October 1942. At that time the unit marking was a horizontal band, in Chutai colour, (white for the 1st, red for the 2nd) on the fin ahead of the rudder and on some aircraft the white edging was continued across the rudder, giving the appearance of two thin horizontal stripes. These markings are associated with the Ki-43 I and early Ki-43 II Ko and do not appear exactly similar to those illustrated here. Soon after conversion to the Ki-43 II the marking was changed to the familiar diagonal fin stripe in Chutai colours, (with yellow for the 3rd Chutai formed in the summer of 1943), to a design drawn by Corporal Kennosuke Seshimo, together with a large white two-digit number applied to the rudder.
 
The early 33rd Sentai marking in China was a broad horizontal band across both fin and rudder, in the Chutai colour and edged in white. The marking was changed after the Sentai CO, Maj Akira Watanabe, was killed on 24 August 1943 during an air battle over Hankow, China. When the unit moved to Burma in early October 1943 its Oscars were already displaying the familiar "double-three" symbol.
 
64th Sentai displayed their famous diagonal arrow symbol throughout the war on all versions of the Oscar and are most unlikely to have used any other marking.
 
However, the Kumagaya Army Flying School used a horizontal fin stripe, like that illustrated, to designate flight leaders, with the school symbol, a black and white disc design, on the rudder. Perhaps these were Kumagaya aircraft, either re-assigned or with the school symbol censored?
 
Worth mentioning that white bands and stripes on natural metal aircraft often appear grey in monochrome photography. For further interest take a look at the Oscar in the bottom photograph on page 55 of FAOW 13 (latest series), and reproduced elsewhere. White horizontal rudder stripe, overpainted rudder markings and the "white" border on the fuselage hinomaru appears grey.
 
Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: John D. Watson <SokMonkey@CTConnect.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 March 2002, at 7:12 p.m.
 
Does anyone know where one can get a Hasegawa Ki 43 III, as opposed to the Ki 43 II? The former version has the multiple exhaust stacks on the cowling side, as opposed to the single stack on the latter. My modifications to a II kit are not quite up to scratch, as I would like to build a version belonging to the French AF in Indochina. Any help greatly appreciated! :)
 
Re: What scale?
 
Posted By: John Watson <SokMonkey@CTConnect.com>
Date: Sunday, 17 March 2002, at 6:14 a.m.
 
In Response To: What scale? *No Text* (Ryan Boerema)
 
Regarding the Ki 43 III I am seeking, it is a 1/72 scale I am looking for. Thanks! :)
 
Re: What scale?
 
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <bsanborn@psemc.com>
Date: Sunday, 17 March 2002, at 2:44 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: What scale? (John Watson)
 
The kit you seek is actually a Gartex KI-43 III. They were loosly associated with Hasegawa. The kit is out of production, but the last time (Oct '01) I was in Legends hobby shop there was one on the shelf. Legends is located in LA. I've included a link to their web site. The kit is not listed on the site, but you may want to give them a call just to be sure.
 
You may also want to look on Ebay. I've seen them show up there occasionally.
 
Wasn't there a Fujimi Ki-43 III before?
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, 22 March 2002, at 9:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-43 III (John D. Watson)
 
Rather new tool with its Ki43 I series. I kinda remember seeing it on Internet though I might be mistaken.( In 1/72 scale)
 
Re: Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: martin <SkipperGrumby@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 March 2002, at 3:33 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-43 III (John D. Watson)
 
Speaking of late model Oscars, did they in fact of "cannon" in the wings? Yasuo Kuwahara's says in his autobiography that his Haybusa did..... I thought maybe this was a translation error, as I am far from an expert, but I thought the Oscars were never fitted with cannon.
 
Anyone know the skinny?
 
Re: Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 19 March 2002, at 6:53 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (martin)
 
I think you're right (although it's difficult to be certain). The molst reliable records I have state that the largest gun carried by this plane was the 12.7mm Ho-103 (and that was in the cowling). However, IIRC the IJA referred to the Ho-103 as a cannon.
 
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
 
MG terms
 
Posted By: Ted Bradstreet <tbstreet@mint.net>
Date: Wednesday, 20 March 2002, at 5:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (Tony Williams)
 
Tony's correct about the nomenclature. The IJA referred to automatic guns from 12.7 mm up as "kikanho," machine cannon, which can cause some confusion if so translated without the caliber or gun name being given. Rifle-caliber guns were "kikanjuu," machine gun. The IJN considered all MGs small arms and used the abbreviated two-kanji term "kijuu" for all.
 
"Kijuu" and "Kikanho"
 
Posted By: UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Tuesday, 19 March 2002, at 7:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (Tony Williams)
 
As you mentioned, IJA called aircraft machine guns and cannons as "Kikanho" (cannon). On the other hand, IJN called both aircraft machine guns and cannons as "Kijuu" (machine gun).
 
Re: "Kijuu" and "Kikanho"
 
Posted By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 19 March 2002, at 1:29 p.m.
 
In Response To: "Kijuu" and "Kikanho" (UCHIDA, Katsuhiro)
 
Thank you. It was not unusual for navies to refer to guns as "machine guns" when the same countries' air forces called them "cannon". To air forces at that time, anything bigger than 8mm calibre was a big gun. To navies, anything smaller than 76mm was small...
 
Re: "Kijuu" and "Kikanho"
 
Posted By: Martin <SkipperGrumby@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 20 March 2002, at 5:20 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: "Kijuu" and "Kikanho" (Tony Williams)
 
Thanks Nick, Tony and Katsuhiro! Just as I thought. I'm no expert but I was reasonably sure the Oscar never had wing guns, let alone what we call cannon. Still, if you haven't read Kuwahara's book "Kamikaze", I highly recommed it. This kid was a front line combat pilot for the last oh, lets say five months of the war or so (I forget exactly) and I say "Kid" because he was STILL only 15 when the war ended. He was escorting JAAF Kamikaze flights to Okinawa from Hiro Air Base outside of Hiroshima. He had his own orders to go on a Kamikaze mission but the war ended first. He wathed his friend Tatsuno crash into a tanker flying a Navy Claude. (Don't know where they got it) Open cockpit and all.. Tatsuno was a teen too. Kuwahara ended the war with 3 Hellcats claimed over Okinawa waters, and one shared P-51 over Japan. His girlfriend, sadly, was lost at the A-bombing of Hiroshima. Mercy, you gotta hate it when things like that happen. Fascinating book. This kid could have been really something if he had a Zero and went through flight training in the late '30's instead of the mid '40's. The way he describes basic training is even worse that what Sakai describes in "Samurai!". The beatings with baseball bats resulting in broken bones, the starving etc etc. Suicides among the young men and children in basic training was very very common.
 
Re: Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Wednesday, 20 March 2002, at 2:15 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (martin)
 
I have not heard of any Hayabusa being fitted with cannon (or mg) in the wings - probably a translation error. Two prototype versions of the Ki-43 III Otsu were built. Intended as a specialised interceptor this Hayabusa was fitted with two Ho-5 20mm cannon firing through the cowling, necessitating distinctive large fairings in front of the windscreen. Built by Tachikawa, this aircraft was also re-engined with the Mitsubishi Ha-112.
 
Eduard were supposed to be producing a new 1/72 Ki-43 III this year but I understand the project may be on hold. Pity. The Gartex kit must be as rare as hen's teeth and probably expensive if you can find one! Anyone tried kit-bashing the standard Hasegawa Ki-43 II?
 
Re: Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: Mike Goodwin <Mike.Goodwin@iname.com>
Date: Wednesday, 20 March 2002, at 1:29 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (Nick Millman)
 
Current thinking is that reports of a Mitsubishi Ha-112 in the Ki-43-III Otsu are in error. Looking at the cowling size, it was more probably a Nakajima Ha-115-II. Putting the Mitsubishi in would have been at least as difficult as putting a Kinsei (same engine) in the A6M8 Zero, and would have required quite a lot of airframe strengthening.
 
Re: Ki-43 III
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, 22 March 2002, at 9:43 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-43 III (martin)
 
Unless there is some real structural redesign of the wing, (which was on its own right highly unlikely), I don't think a Ki43 with wing armament exist. The cutaway drawing I have shows no bay whatsoever for a MG or cannon.
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