-
Miscellaneous Threads pt 2
Topics:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
Pier Francesco Vaccari <pfvaccari@iol.it>
Date:
Wednesday, 13 March 2002, at 9:29 a.m.
Someone can
confirm me that at 07,30 of 25-10-1944 the first kamikaze attack on CVE SUWANEE
(Taffy 1) was conducted by a Ki.84 Hayate of the First Sentai - Fourth Air Army
- IJAAF ?
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Wednesday, 13 March 2002, at 2:13 p.m.
In Response
To: first kamikaze mission (Pier Francesco Vaccari)
I think it
is safe to say that neither the First Sentai nor any other Army unit flew the
first Kamikaze mission. The Army did not join the organized suicide attack
effort until it had been unilaterally initiated by the Navy.
There was an
attack on US CVEs about 0740 on 25 Oct 44. Their attackers were however A6Ms of
201 Naval Air based at Davao, Mindinao. The more famous attack by Lt. Seki took
place in the same area later that day.
The first
"official" Kamikaze attack occurred on 21 October 1944 the day after
the tactic had been ordered by Admiral Onishi. Three A6Ms sortied from Cebu.
Two returned without having contacted the enemy. The aircraft flown by Lt(j.g.)
Kuno did not return. His name was listed in the Japanese press as among those
giving their lives in "special attacks" beginning 21st October.
No US
casualty can be connected to Kuno's death (at least not by me) but what is most
interesting is that on the morning of 21 October HMS Australia was heavily
damaged and its captain killed when a Japanese aircraft crashed into its
bridge. Kuno's sortie did not take place until the afternoon. There is a slight
possibility that the Australia attack was part of the organized Kamikaze effort
but I have not been able to identify the attacking unit.
First Sentai
did suffer casualties on Oct 25th but I do not think they had anything to do
with suicide attacks.
Glad you
started this discussion, I'd like to hear from folks who have more information
than I do on this
Uemura
and HMS Australia?
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Wednesday,
13 March 2002, at 2:26 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (richard dunn)
Anyone know
the circumstances of the loss of Ens. Mahisa Uemura of 201 Air on 21 Oct 44.
Might he have crashed Australia?
Re:
HMAS Australia - first and most Kamikaze hits *PIC*
Posted By:
Garth <garth.o'connell@awm.gov.au>
Date:
Wednesday, 13 March 2002, at 6:50 p.m.
In Response
To: Uemura and HMS Australia? (richard dunn)
Here's just
a little snippet from the Australian 'side' of the story. P.S. Richard, Aussie
ships have HMAS - His Majesty's Australian Ship, not HMS. :-)
Source:
"A Chronology of Australian Armed Forces at War, 1939-1945". Bruce T.
Swain, (2001). ISBN 1 86508 352 6
Page 318
21 October
1944.
"Leyte
Gulf: At 6:05am a Japanese 'Val' dive-bomber, after being damaged by AA fire
from HMAS Shropshire, crashed into the foremast of HMAS Australia. There was a
large explosion and an intense fire was started in the Air Defence Position and
bridge.
The Type 273
Radar latern fell onto the compass platform, both high-angle directors and the
director-control tower were put out of action, and the port strut of the
foremast was broken.
The fire was
brought under control very quickly and by 6:35am the large quantity of wreckage
on the compass platform and the ADP had been cleared away.
Capt.
Dechanineux and 21 others were killed or died of injuries, and 64 men were
injured - 26 of them seriously. Commodore Collins was among the injured. The
Staff Officer (Operations) and the commodore's staff transferred to HMAS
Shropshire and Australia, escorted by HMAS Warramunga, headed for Manus
Island".
The HMAS
AUSTRALIA, later was attacked and hit again FIVE times by Kamikaze aircraft in
1944-1945 - attaining the uneviable record surviving the most number of
Kamikaze strikes on any one ship during the Second World War.
Captain
(Capt) Emile Frank Verlaine Dechaineux "Dishy", was a graduate of the
Royal Australian Naval College in 1919, he had periods of service with both the
Royal Australian Navy (RAN) and the Royal Navy (RN) prior to and during the
Second World War. While with the RN he was awarded the Distinguished Service
Cross (DSC) for destroying German E-boats after Dunkirk. Returning to Australia
he took part in the Gasmata bombardment while comanding officer of HMAS
Warramunga.
In March
1944 he assumed command of HMAS Australia and took part in the Hollandia
landings and the bombardment of Wakde and Aitape, and the landings at Biak,
Noemfoor and Morotai. Capt Dechaineux died of wounds received during the battle
of Leyte Gulf in the Philippines on the 21 October 1944 when a Japanese
Kamikaze aircraft struck the ship's foremast resulting in fires on the bridge.
Capt Dechaineux was posthumously awarded the American Legion of Merit in the
Degree of Officer.
More
recently, in 1990, it was announced that a Collins Class submarine to be built
at the Australian Submarine Corporation in South Australia was to be named HMAS
Dechaineux.
Image:
Negative
Number: 107000
Caption:
Lingayen Gulf, Philippines, 1945-01-09. HMAS Australia showing damage incurred
from attacks by Japanese Kamikaze aircraft in Lingayen Gulf during the Luzon
campaign. This photograph was taken from the USS West Virginia. (US National
Archives Neg. No BB48-0272)
Australian
War Memorial photographic collection.
Editors
note: Picture at
http://anzac.mdsnews.com/attachments/kkoori/107000-australia.jpg
Re:
HMAS Australia - first and most Kamikaze hits
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Wednesday, 13 March 2002, at 7:02 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: HMAS Australia - first and most Kamikaze hits *PIC* (Garth)
The various
sources I've read about this incident are quite uncertain about the aircraft
type involved. While dive bombers (or Vals) are sometimes mentioned this does
not seem to be the majority opinion. "Vals" also raises the question
what Val unit? I can't identify any Val unit in the P.I. as early as 21 Oct.
Maybe Army Ki 51s? Other observors were of the opinion that the crash came from
a deliberate act.
6th
FB attacks HMS Australia?
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 6:00 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: HMAS Australia - first and most Kamikaze hits *PIC* (Garth)
It is good
that we are on the Japanese Army air board! I think I may have found a clue as
to HMS Australia's attackers!
The Ki 51's
of the JAAF 6th Flying Brigade were active in shipping attacks that day. I
haven't related their bases to Australia's position or reviewed the
documentation on the Australia attack but here's what I have at the moment.
Six 65 FR
aircraft flew from San Jose and claim to have set a "transport ship"
on fire. Three aircraft failed to return and two or three of the others were
damaged with one crewman killed.
Three others
of the 65th flew from Lipa. Results of mission unknown. One failed to return.
Three from
66th FR "set an 8,000 ton transport on fire." Two aircraft failed to
return.
While not
very specific the above gives us aircraft with fixed landing gear (and a
superficial resemblance to a Val) claiming to attack and set fire to a large
ship on October 21st in the P.I. Not conclusive I realize but something to work
with
65th
sentai insignia?
Posted By: Ryan
Boerema <ryann1k2j@aol.com>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 12:20 p.m.
In Response
To: 6th FB attacks HMS Australia? (richard dunn)
Anyone know
what it was? Scott's "Emblems of the Rising Sun" show the 65th flying
"Marys" until '42, with a divided horizontal diamond as the emblem,
and an Oscar with a, well, curly, insignia in 1945, but nothing for the
"Sonias" mentioned by Mr. Dunn above. (I'll bet these aircraft have a
lot of interesting history.)
Re:
Fixed undercarriage confusion
Posted By:
Garth <garth.o'connell@awm.gov.au>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 7:06 p.m.
In Response
To: 6th FB attacks HMS Australia? (richard dunn)
I can easily
see how our guys could of confused the Ki-51 SONIA and D3A VAL to be the first
Kamikaze attack of the Second World War and on the HMAS Australia.
This is a
very interesting matter for me personally, it could literally involve
re-writing the Australian account of this historically significant attack. I am
very keen to hear of any more evidence from yourself and our esteemed friends
here backing or disclaiming Ki-51 SONIA's of the 6th Flying Group :-)
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
Pier Francesco Vaccari <pfvaccari@iol.it>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 1:14 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (richard dunn)
thank you
for your reply, but in E.P.Hyot book 'KAMIKAZE' is reported that First Sentai
carried out a suicide attack on Taffy 1 group at 07,40 AM, with damage on CVEs
SANTEE and SUWANEE.
At 10,50 AM
5 A6M2/5 from Mabalacat (201° Kokutai) carried out an attack on Taffy 3 and CVE
ST.LO sunk: I d'nt understand why in every study on Pacific War is reported
that the first organized kamikaze attack was conducted by Yukio Seki at 10,50
on Taffy 3.
Hoyt
as authority?
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 5:43 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (Pier Francesco Vaccari)
I certainly
admire the quantity of Edwin Hoyt's books. He has written broadly on the
Pacific War. Depth and accuracy are another question. When it comes to Japanese
sources he seems to rely almost exclusively on secondary sources and these seem
often to include popular literature rather than scholarly works.
With respect
to the 1st Sentai I can only say they were in the P.I. in late October
operating from Mabalacat/Clark and later from a base on Negros I. I don't know
exactly what they were doing on the 25th but as indicated previously there is
no reason to believe they were operating as Kamikazes. {We've had "proving
a negative" discussions previously on this board}.
We do know
that 201 Ku launched two flights of Kamikazes from Davao consisting of a total
of 6 A6M Kamikazes and 4 A6M escorts. Take off time was 0630. This fits nicely
with a 0740 attack. Three of the Kamikazes did not return to Davao. Most likely
explanation is that they attacked CVEs.
US
intelligence reports for the 25th say the attacking aircraft were thought to be
Zeros. The wreckage of one of the attackers was positively identified as a
Zero.
Don't know
where Hoyt got his information. Perhaps he mistook Kantai for Sentai. Through
most of October 44 the Navy's 1st Air Fleet was in overall command of Navy air
units in the P.I.
Can anyone
help us with the activities of 1st Sentai on October 25th?
Re:
Hoyt as authority?
Posted By:
Larry <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 7:11 a.m.
In Response
To: Hoyt as authority? (richard dunn)
I can't add
much to Rick's take on this matter, but here's are a couple of additional
fragments that may help a bit (or perhaps cloud the broth):
No. 1 (1st )
Special Attack Corps (SAC) (Philippines)
Formed 20
Oct 44 at Mabalacat NAS/Luzon in the Philippines from 1st Air Fleet volunteers
and it was the first of the Special Attack or kamikaze units.
Shikishima
Unit (Philippines)
Assigned to
1st SAC; departed from Mabalacat; expended 25 Oct 44 (this was the first
special attack unit expended in the Philippines and was credited with sinking
the CVE USS St. Lo off Samar Is.).
These come
from the following, which I feel is the most accurate and comprehensive English
language published work on the special attack forces and beats Hoyt hands down:
Warner,
Denis and Peggy Warner, The Sacred Warriors: Japan's Suicide Legions. New York:
Avon Books, 1982.
Regarding 1
FR, it was:
....ordered
to Clark Field on Luzon in the Philippines on 15-17 Oct with 41 FRANKs on
strength as part of the SHO-Go 1 and 2 contingency plan build-up, staging
through Shanghai and Taichu on Formosa.
Oct 44 – Feb
45: during the last week of Oct and the month of Nov, flew air defense of the
Manila area and fighter escort for special attack (Kamikaze) missions directed
against Allied landings on Leyte, with many of the latter being staged from
Manapla airfield on Negros in the Central Philippines.
I have never
seen any primary or secondary references to 1 Hikô Sentai flying special attack
sorties during the time frame in question.
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
Martin <SkipperGrumby@aol.com>
Date:
Thursday, 14 March 2002, at 5:09 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (richard dunn)
It's pretty
much agreed upon Peir, that Yukio's Seki's flight is the first verifiably
successful Kamikaze attack. A carrier was taken out that day, St.Lo? I forget.
Anyway, an intriguing part of that flight was that the legendary Hiroyoshi
Nishizawa was the leader of the Zero escorts, and he was very impressed with
the results of the attack and, having a gut feeling or "premonition"
if you will, that he would not live much longer, volunteered for the next days
Kamikaze mission. Of course, Japan's greatest Ace was denied permission, and he
died the next day when a bomber he was a passenger in was shot down by a
patrolling Hellcat. However, Nishizawa's Zero was permitted to go on a Kamikaze
assignment with a different Pilot. As for Kuno, it is widely belived that he
likely:
1) Was shot
down
2) Refused
to return and ran out of fuel and ditched/crashed into the ocean
3) Was shot
down by AA fire from a US ship that had no clue he was on a Kamikaze mission.
The saw an approaching Japanese plane and shot it down. As was stated, no
Japanese plane was reported to have crashed in the time element Kuno was in the
air. At least, not in the scope of his range.
This is
based on my readings. Anyone here know better, please correct me and both Peir
and I may learn something new! :O) Oh yes, I concur that the JAAF did not
initiate Kamikaze ops until after they saw the success and,equally important
(almost) the morale builder that the JNAF had developed with the Kamikaze or
Tokko squads.
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Friday, 15 March 2002, at 9:32 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (richard dunn)
You wrote:
"I think it is safe to say that neither the First Sentai nor any other
Army unit flew the first Kamikaze mission." . . .Since this is not my
field of expertise, I'm counting on you, or another member of these boards, to
confirm my information:
I know that
nearly all authoritative sources date the first kamikaze attacks in October of
'44. However, since reading this thread, I've been driving myself crazy for the
last two days looking for a quote, which has always stuck in my mind for the
last 5 years or so, due to a fondness I have for the Ki-45. According to
"The Concise Guide to Axis Aircraft of World War II" by David Mondey:
"One
additional role was pioneered by the Ki-45 when, on 27 May 1944, four of these
aircraft became the first to launch Kamikaze attacks, directed against Allied
shipping operating off the coast of New Guinea."
Also, while
maybe not to be considered an "official" kamikaze attack, another
item I have in my notes regarding the Ki-45 is:
Yawata,
Kyushu, 20 Aug 1944; The first B-29 daylight bombing of Japan takes place.
First intentional ramming of a B-29 occured during this raid, by Sgt Shigeo
Nobe of the 4th Sentai flying a Ki-45.
Any
thoughts?
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Friday, 15 March 2002, at 11:21 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (Don Marsh)
Then there
was Sgt. Oda ramming a B-17 over New Guinea on May 8, 43 and Lt. Yokazaki
ramming a B-24 over the Kuriles on Sep 11, 1943. And there were others.
I think the
focus here has been on "Kamikaze" meaning a high level policy of
officially directed suicide attacks. This differs in both scope and the high
level order from incidents of suicide attacks which occurred throughout the
war.
On the Navy
board, I've made an effort at defining terms. Helps if we can agree on what we
are talking about!
Re:
first kamikaze mission
Posted By:
Martin <SkipperGrumby@aol.com>
Date:
Saturday, 16 March 2002, at 5:06 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: first kamikaze mission (Don Marsh)
As long as
men fly and fight, there were "suicide" dives on enemy targets. The
Germans did it, the US did it, the Brits, French, Japanese, everyone. But the
Special Attack or Tokko Squadrons (which are commonly referred to as
"Kamikaze") was started by Admiral Takejiro Onishi of the IJN in the
Phillipines in Oct of '44. These were not men who were disabled in combat and
made a last minute decision to inflict another blow to the enemy prior to dying
or rather than risk being captured. These were instructed to go out and die.
Even Saburo Sakai's suicide flight that was launched from Iwo Jima in what,
June or July of '44, prior to the organization of the Kamikaze SAC in the
Phillipines does not officially count, although that's what they were. On a
suicide mission. But...it was not a specially designated unit. The Iwo wing was
getting decimated by the Hellcats, (a handfull of Aces and a bunch of
greenhorns were not enough to stop the Hellcats) and pretty soon Iwo was to be
left without air cover period.They had to find SOME way to inflict a blow to
the US fleet, and a few aces like Sakai, Muto, Hagiri and Shiga splashing a few
Hellcats was not going to cut it. They needed to take out a flat - top. With
the screening Hellcats over the fleet a few torpedo and dive bombers didn't
stand a chance of making it to the US fleet and inflicting enough damage, so
the call was made. They never made it to the fleet being bounced by
intercepting Hellcats, and the only Zero Pilots to come back that were sent on
that mission were Kinsuke Muto, Sakai and his wingman Masami Shiga and a Gent
named Shirai. (I don't think Hagiri was on that aborted mission, was he?)
Still, the first verifiable official "Kamikaze" attack was led by
Lt.Yukio Seki from Mabalacat, and Seki and or some of his fellow Tokko pilots
sunk the St.Lo and damaged some other crafts. Carriers, if I recall correctly.
Incidentally, I know that Shiga and of course Sakai survived the war, but does
anyone one know what ever happened to Sakai's other Wingman on that mission, a
fellow named "Shirai"? Did he eventually get shot down, did he go on
a Kamikaze Mission or did he survive the war? Very interesting thread,Gents! I
never fail to learn something from you folks! :O)
Biak Kamikazes?
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Saturday, 16 March 2002, at 8:29 a.m.
Regarding
the Biak Kamikaze story I had a little delayed reaction and realized I had a
bit more on it though I have never credited it but...
Japanese
Monograpn No. 136 says the total Japanese reaction on May 27th at Biak was 9
Navy Zeros and 4 Army heavy bombers. It says 5 Zeros were lost [this is
confirmed by 23d Air Flotilla War Diary] as well as four Army heavy bombers.
After
stating the above numbers as the total effort the very next paragraph states:
"It is a fact that the 7th Air division cooperated closely in this combat
with its fill available strength, but full data concerning it are lacking. Maj.
Takata, commander of the 5th Air Regiment, who was at Muni that day, took off
for the battle and fearlessly crashed into an enemy warship in a 'suicide
attack'. This was the very first of the Tokko attacks."
So that
appears to be the Japanese version. 23d Air Flotilla does claim one sea truck
(small transport) sunk and others as well as smaller craft set afire.
Other than
Zeros strafing small boats the only shipping attack I have found is two
fighters and four "light bombers" attacking SC-732. Three light
bombers were claimed shot down in flames by ships including one by SC-732.
I suspect
"four heavy bombers", "four light bombers" and "four
Ki 45s" are all the same. NB the Japanese sometimes referred to the Ki45
as a heavy fighter [the editor of Mono. 136 may have never heard of a heavy
fighter and 'corrected' the text to "heavy bomber"].
Clearly this
was claimed to be a suicide attack. I remain dubious.
Additional
facts welcome!
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Ivan <ta152@iol.it>
Date:
Thursday, 28 March 2002, at 1:07 a.m.
I would like
to build a Ki 109 Hasegawa in 1/72.
I want to
paint it with color scheme in 2 tones but i don't have references about this
colors.
Can you help
me?
Re:
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 28 March 2002, at 5:53 p.m.
In Response
To: Mitsubishi Ki 109 *PIC* (Ivan)
unfortunately
there aren't many referrences regarding the Ki-109. Lets see...
FAOW #50
(blue series) June 1974.
Francillon
p.194-196
MA #329 IJA
fighters, p. 171, 172
AIR World's
WWII IJA Aircraft, p.102
Green
Arrow's X-planes, p.150
Koku Fan
Ill. No.69, p.58, 59
Maru
Mechanic No.32 (excellent details on the Ki-67 "Hiryu" but not much
on the Ki-109)
Most of the
above editions have the same photo that appear in Francillon's but only in MA
#329 there are some b/w profiles.
Re:
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Jim Long <jimilong@msn.com>
Date:
Thursday, 28 March 2002, at 6:42 p.m.
In Response
To: Mitsubishi Ki 109 *PIC* (Ivan)
When you say
"color scheme in 2 tones" do you mean solid tones, such as an even
dark tone on the upper surfaces and a light tone on the undersurfaces? You are
not talking about a mottled finish, right?
Re:
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Ivan <ta152@iol.it>
Date:
Friday, 29 March 2002, at 12:35 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Mitsubishi Ki 109 (Jim Long)
yes i mean a
solid tones, dark tone on upper surfaces and light tone on under surfaces.
Re:
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Mike Goodwin <Mike.Goodwin@iname.com>
Date:
Friday, 29 March 2002, at 4:26 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Mitsubishi Ki 109 (Ivan)
There are
four pictures of these Ki-109s in Bueschel's book on the Ki-67, published by
Schiffer. They are low contrast and a little fuzzy, but I am sure the
publishers did their best. Two of the pictures are of a Ki-109 in US markings.
Re:
Mitsubishi Ki 109
Posted By:
Jim Long <jimilong@msn.com>
Date:
Saturday, 30 March 2002, at 11:44 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Mitsubishi Ki 109 (Ivan)
The only
reference I have found regarding the colors of the 2-tone solid camouflage on a
Ki-109 is in the Model Art book No. 329, entitled "Camouflage &
Markings of the Imperial Japanese Army Fighters." E. George mentioned this
book in his posting.
Page 172 of
the book has a profile and a top view of a Ki-109 with the solid upper and
lower colors. The drawing caption says that the upper tone was a black brown
and the lower surface was a light gray.
This book
has two pages of color chips with formulas from a Japanese model paint
supplier, Mr. Color. The formula, using Mr. Color paints, for the black brown
is given as 50 percent white, 30 percent black, and 20 percent brown. The chip
that is said to represent this formula looks like a deep mauve rather than a
black brown. But the chip in my copy of the book might be flawed.
The book
does not show a chip for the gray of the lower surfaces. The two Japanese
characters that describe it are the symbols for "ash" and
"white," which I translate as light gray.
That is
about all that I know about this. Perhaps E. George will read this and check my
facts
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Sunday, 14 April 2002, at 12:38 p.m.
There were
only two 5th AF fighter combats during February 1943 both occurred on Feb 6th
near Wau, Papua, New Guinea. At that time ground fighting (Okabe Detachment
versus Australians) was going on near Wau. Fifth AF transports were bringing in
troops and supplies to the rough Wau airfield with well over 100 landings on
some days. Fifth AF fighters escorted all these transport flights.
The Japanese
Army and Navy air forces were in the middle of KE GO (the Guadalcanal
evacuation operation) when word came that the Okabe Detachment was in desparate
circumstances at Wau. Most of the 11th Sentai and a chutai of the 45th Sentai
were transferred to Lae to support Okabe.
On the
morning of February 6th 29 type 1 model 1 fighters and 9 type 99 light bombers
headed to Wau to disrupt airlift operations. Approaching Wau at that time were
5 C-47s. Their fighter cover included eight P-40Es of the 7th FS and eight
P-39Ds of the 40th FS.
The P-40s
sighted what they took to be 12 "Beaufighters" and 12 escorting
fighters. After noticing the hostile intent of this force they dove to attack
and claimed 2 Lilys, 4 Zekes and 1 Hamp.
Capt. Thomas
H. Winburn led the P-39s and sighted a formation of 18 Zekes with a second
formation of 6 others coming from another direction. They were at 12,000 feet
and also dove to attack. They claimed a "Lily or Sally" and 11 Zekes.
Three pilots Winburn, 1/Lt Robert W. Schick and Capt. William F. McDonough
claimed double victories. There is a famous picture of McDonough after this
combat posing in front of his P-39 No. 23 with a Donald Duck emblem on the nose
along with a white "23".
Meanwhile
the Japanese bombed the airstrip where they encountered anti-aircarft fire
which claimed two Zeros and a bomber. Some of the type 1 figters chased two of
the C-47s and shot down C-47 #41-38658 of 33TCS, 374 TCG piloted by 1/Lt.
Robert H. Schwensen. Wreckage of this aircraft was found in 1988. RAAF Bostons
were engaged in ground attacks in the area and one of these which failed to return
was a possible victim of Japanese fighters.
Three type
99 light bombers and four type 1 fighters were lost. Apparently the only US
fighter damaged was a P-40 that took about 10 7.7mm hits.
Japanese
losses include Regimental CO Major Katsuji Suguira and chutai CO Capt.
Shigenori Miyabashi. Other losses were Tomechi Takaga and Tetsuo Sato. Lt.
Sato's identity tag was recovered from the wreckage of his aircraft. Aircraft
lost included Ki 43 Nos. 653 and 807 and possibly No. 805.
In the early
afternoon the Japanese fighters conducted a follow up fighter sweep and
reported engaging 14 P-38s. Their opponents on this ocassion included P-38Fs of
the 9th and 39th FS as well as Airacobras (5 P-400s, 1 P-39K and 2 P-39D-2s) of
the 41st FS. The 9th saw only three Japanese fighters and claimed one Zeke.
Thirteen P-38s of the 39th saw a dozen Japanese fighters and claimed one.
The
Airacobras at 13,000 feet saw 6 Japanese fighters at 7,000 feet and dove on
them out of the sun claiming three destroyed and three probables.
Japanese
bombs destroyed a Wirraway at Wau, blew up a signals hut, chewed up the
airstrip and caused several casualties including three killed. The Japanese
fighters claimed eight P-40s (six of them probable), 1 P-38 (a probable), and two
large aircraft. The 45th Sentai claimed one large and five small aircraft on
the ground as well as one fighter shot down.
Apparently
all the Japanese losses occured during the first raid as the Australia 2/6th
Battalion "saw three Japanese fighters and two bombers shot down in the
dogfight and watched two other aircraft crash into the surronding hills as they
limped for home."
Possibly
other US fighters were damaged but I have not been able to substantiate
anything beyond the one P-40 mentioned. Losses from Japanese sources which are
verified by witnesses on the ground amount to 7 of which some may be
attributable to anti-aircraft fire. US fighter claims are in excess of 20.
All these
combats occured below 18,000 feet and most below 12,000 feet. At these
altitudes the P-38's performance advantage over the older P-40Es and P-39s was
marginal. The P-39s and P-40s met the larger formation in the first combat
where the Japanese fighters were diverted by attacking transports as well as
protecting their own bombers. US fighters had altitude advantage in each
instance. Despite the claims, the second combat appears to be a draw with no
losses on either side.
Under these
tactical circumstances it appears the P-39 and P-40 could perform as well as
the P-38.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Sunday, 14 April 2002, at 1:27 p.m.
In Response
To: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 (richard dunn)
Many thanks
Rick - beautifully written. I have always thought the P-39 and P-40 unjustly
under-rated with a combat record that tells quite a different story.
The 45th
Sentai was the light bomber unit that attacked Hong Kong in December 1941,
equipped then with the Ki-32.
Sugiura's
Hayabusa I has been depicted as quite a colourful machine with multiple
lightning bolts on the tail in the combined colours of the three Chutai and
double white bands on the fuselage ahead of the hinomaru. Miyabashi, supposedly
known as "The Red Falcon", flew another colourful bird, depicted on the
cover of Bueschel's Schiffer re-print on the type. As a matter of interest do
any of the combat/intelligence reports you have access to mention the colour
schemes or markings of the claimed aircraft?
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Lae Oscar *PIC*
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Sunday, 14 April 2002, at 4:15 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 (Nick Millman)
You wrote,
"Miyabashi, supposedly known as 'The Red Falcon,' flew another colourful
bird, depicted on the cover of Bueschel's Schiffer re-print on the type."
The Oscar
below is probably NOT that of "MIYABASHI," but it is colorful and it
was captured at Lae, N.G. with a red or yellow "lightning flash"
marking of No.11 F with the fuselage stripe of a Chutaicho.
Editors
note: Picture no longer available
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Sunday, 14 April 2002, at 1:59 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 (Nick Millman)
I don't have
anything handy on colors. At least one type 1 fighter flew into Lae on February
4th (perhaps to take care of administrative details?). It was photographed on
that date from an altitude of sixty feet by a Beaufighter. The lightning flash
emblem is plainly evident on the tail. It appears light (possibly white)
colored.
My narrative
may make it appear that the Ki48s as well as the Ki 43s operated from Lae. I
have no direct evidence of this. They probably flew from Rabaul and rv'd with
the 11th over Lae. The records of the 22d Airfield Battalion at Lae indicate
they supplied fuel to the 11th on 4th and 6th February but no indication that
they serviced the 45th at that time.
I have only
summary information on the wrecks captured at Lae. They included several early
model Oscars (see my piece on Ki43-1 armament on this site). Perhaps someone
has found additional information on the markings of Lae wrecks. That would help
since we can identify the squadron affiliations of some of the wrecks from
documentary evidence.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 *PIC*
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Sunday, 14 April 2002, at 3:54 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 (richard dunn)
You wrote:
"At
least one type 1 fighter flew into Lae on February 4th [1943] (perhaps to take
care of administrative details?). It was photographed on that date from an
altitude of sixty feet by a Beaufighter. The lightning flash emblem is plainly
evident on the tail. It appears light (possibly white) colored."
Editors
note: Picture no longer available
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43
Posted By:
Garth O'Connell <garth.o'connell@awm.gov.au>
Date:
Monday, 15 April 2002, at 7:08 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
Any idea on
where NARA sourced this excellent image Mr Lansdale? Our Beau's were famous low
level specialists, alongside USAAF B25's and some of the most dramatic images
from the SWPA are from them ;)
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Lae Oscar Photo/NARA Negative No.
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Tuesday, 16 April 2002, at 4:45 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 (Garth O'Connell)
I cannot
make out the writing on the negative clearly. It says something like:
"4'6 34
L 8 LAE /JIPO ...." The NARA negative no. is 80-G-65865.
Perhaps Rick
DUNN can make out the source writing at the bottom of the photo with more
clarity?
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Monday, 15 April 2002, at 2:36 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Combat Over Wau - 6 Feb 43 *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
Outstanding!
I have seen this one before but never reproduced so clearly! Lots of detail
here for the magnifying glass!
Zero drop
tanks against the revetment? Faded "kumogata" camouflage? Wing
hinomaru with thin white outlines?
Brilliant
candid shot - thanks Jim!
There's also
a well known photograph of a Model I being examined by IJN personnel
"somewhere in the SWP" (you can see it at the bottom of page 43 in
FAOW 13 - 1988). It appears to be in a streaky mottle over n/m or a base coat -
ever so slighly unusual for a Model I. A few Zeros stand behind it. Is it in
the same context as this thread? Do you know the location?
Palembang Paratroop Invasion
Posted By:
David Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 25 April 2002, at 1:41 p.m.
Terence
O'Brien... t.o'brien@virgin.net ...asked me to post the following info on the
Palembang Paratroop Invasion...he said that "...it is a tour de force for
me simply to send an e-mail - you cannot expect a child's level of expertise in
this medium by someone who is approaching ninety years of age."
Palembang
Paratroop Invasion:
It is
inevitable that there should be conflicting reports about the success of that
Japanaese paratroop landing. The military setting there that day at Palembang
was so disorganised, the action itself over the ensuing forty-eight hours so
chaotic and its immediate outcome so
confused,
that it is not possible to present one simple picture of such an event. If I
give some of the elements in it you will perhaps understand why clarity should
be so elusive.
There was no
substantial ground force ready to resist the Japanese landing. A few days
earlier I had taken the Austalian general Sir John Laverack on a reconnaissance
of the Palembang approaches and he had been, even to me, a junior pilot, quite
frank about the futility of trying to hold the position. I had picked him up at
the big public airfield (P1) close by Palembang town and the oil field, and
this was where the Japanese paratroops landed.. This main airfield had some
defences, not just mock wooden guns as at our own airfield (P2) some eighty
miles away in the jungle. At P1 was the remnants of a Hurricane fighter
squadron from Singapore, at P2 was our remaining bomber force of perhaps twenty
or so Hudsons (RAF and RAAF) and about ten Blenheims.
Command HQ
at P1 had only poor contact with us at P2, where all our aircraft were engaged
that day attacking the Japanese landing force and the barges coming up the
river. Enemy paratroops landed near Command HQ at P1 who signalled they were
closing down and that we at P2 must abandon it at once, pull back to Java with
what we could take. Our squadron had just lost three of our remaining nine
Hudsons in the river attacks, I was on stand-by again but was ordered instead
to take our last six aircraft to Java. There at Batavia airport an RAF group
captain threateaned to have me court-martialled for a panic flight, telling me
there had been no parachutist landings at Palembang. He then disappeared, and I
began a search at airport and Batavia town for some sort of allied command
centre.
By nightfall
I had still not found any authority, nor could we get any answers on the
aircraft radio. The airport controller told me a Dutch pilot had reported that
the position at Palembang was in fact still unresolved, that the P1 defenders
had driven back the Japanese paratroops, and that the Japanese had still not
discovered our jungle airfield at P2. But he had now lost radio contact with
Palembang Night was falling. The apoplectic Group Captain had disappeared. I
told our group to settle down on the airport floor, that decision would be made
at dawn. As soon as daylight came I led the group off to the airfield at
Bandoeng where we found about a dozen RAAF Hudsons which had also been told to
flee P1 the previous afternoon. Also there was a Dutch fighter pilot who had
just landed from P2 which he said was still undiscovered but that the major
part of the Japanese landing force were now in control at P1, and a motorised
unit was moving down the road that must soon lead them to discovery of our
jungle airfield.
It was being
abandoned but they had many sick and wounded, and no aircraft to get them away.
We could not contact any command to authorise a return but after some
discussion the outcome was that the six RAF Hudsons went back to P2, where we
were able to land undisturbed, and by the end of that day were back in Java
with over seventy men and a heavy load of the tools and equipment to keep our
aircraft flying. We lost one aircraft on that return journey. And P2 was
abandoned that night, all personnel finzally reaching Java by boat three days
later - where we only lasted about another week.
That is an
outline of what I, just one participant in the shambles, can tell of that
Palembang landing. And here a few random grasps from memory...
In the
confusion at P1 after the paratroops landed one RAF officer, meeting a Japanese
in the perimeter area, had an argument about who should surrender to whom - I
think the RAF man won, temporarily.........
Several of
the oil tanks were on fire when we flew back that morning...... A fighter
pilot, Terence Kelly, wrote a book entitled Hurricane in the Jungle about that
action at P1 where his squadron remnant was located...... I have somewhere in
my papers an account by one Hudson gunner who made three or four sorties
against the barges....... the station commander at P2, Group Captain Macaulay
RAAF, wrote a report about those days and it must be available somewhere (I
have a copy)...... the grassy landing area at P2 must have been almost three
miles long yet the Japanese never discovered it until their army troops
stumbled across it in their southern advance...... Of General Sir John
Laverack's infantry division only an advance party landed in Java where they
were caught in the final surrender and most died on the Burma railway..... We
lost all our Hudsons in the end, mine the last to go, but two of the RAAF ones
managed to get back to Australia by mid-flight refuelling from cans of petrol
in the fuselage and a hose out to the wing tanks....... the Japanese paratroops
seem to have made little input into the capture of P1 - the barge-landed force
was the deciding element - nor did they stop the Dutch from sabotaging the
oil-field facilities.
Terence
O'Brien t.o'brien@virgin.net
Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914
Posted By:
Gabriel Garrido <garridog@teleline.es>
Date:
Tuesday, 30 April 2002, at 4:03 p.m.
The German
Possession of Tsingtao in China came under siege shortly after the outbreak of
World War I in August, 1914. Heavily outmanned 13 to 1 and outgunned, the
german pilot Gunther Plüschow flew reconnaissance missions in his Etrich
Rumpler Taube around Tsingtao. As the war escalated, Japan's militarism was
awakened and sent forces to join the British against the Germans. Plüschow, now
a Lieutenant, flew his aircraft against 9 Japanese Army and Naval aircraft (the
Japanese used in this siege the seaplane carrier Wakamiya that carried 4 early
Henri and Maurice Farman seaplanes operational + 1 in reserve, in other source
you can read that the Wakamiya carried 2 Farman operational and two more in reserve)
and was unofficially credited with shooting down a Maurice Farman aircraft (an
aviation first). He was given the name Dragon Master due to the dragon tattoo
found on his left arm.
Apart this
little information that I have found in the web, in the french magazine Wing
Masters nº 12, you can read that the army used 4 Type Mo (Farman) planes and
one Nieuport NG2 that flew the first combat missions of the Japanese air force
(a bombing raid) and also they forced one Taube to run away (obviously the Gunther
Plüschow plane). (This French magazine doesn´t speak about the use of naval
planes)
Anybody
could confirm or denie this claim or post more information about this combat.
If it´s true that one Japanese plane was shot down, was it from the army or the
navy?, what kind of weapon used the german to shot it down?
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914
Posted By:
Jim Broshot <jbroshot@fidnet.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 1 May 2002, at 9:48 p.m.
In Response
To: Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914 (Gabriel Garrido)
There's a
brief discussion of this campaign, insofar as the IJN's air arm in SUNBURST.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914
Posted By:
John MacGregor <JohnMacG6@hotmail.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 1 May 2002, at 2:18 p.m.
In Response
To: Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914 (Gabriel Garrido)
Pluschow
actually wrote his memoires of his time in Tsingtao. I have a French-language
version of these (with pictures). It's called 'L'Aviateur De Tsingtao' and was
published in 1931. I think this book has been re-published more recently and in
English.
Try looking
on www.bookfinder.com or
www.livre-rare-book.com
(for French)
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Wednesday, 1 May 2002, at 2:14 p.m.
In Response
To: Aerial actions over Tsingtao 1914 (Gabriel Garrido)
the
operations took place from 04 September until 06 November, 1914. The Japanese
Army used 4 Maurice Farmans and one Nieuport NG (a monoplane) with 8 pilots.
They flew 86 sorties and dropped 44 bombs.
The IJN had
4 Maurice Farman seaplanes, one three-seater and three two-seaters, and 7
pilots, flying 49 sorties and dropping 199 bombs.
The first
IJN operational sorties were reconnaissance flights over Chiao-chou Bay on 05
September by a three-seater Farman piloted by Lt Hideho Wado and a two-seater
Farman piloted by Sub-Lt Masaru Fujise. Using bombs made from naval shells with
fins attached to them they managed to sink a German torpedo boat (some sources
report a minelayer). This was the first successful attack by an aeroplane on a
warship, although not the first bombing attack by an aeroplane.
The first
IJA sorties were flown from Lungkou in Shantung Province on 21 September. Two
Farmans and the Nieuport dropped bombs on German military camps.
The first
aerial combat of the Tsingtao campaign occurred on 13 October when both Army
and Navy aircraft attempted to intercept the Taube. Pluschow escaped by
climbing into cloud at 9,000 ft and flew the Taube to Haichow to refuel. The
Chinese authorities attempted to confiscate the aircraft but Pluschow set fire
to it. An indication of the potential importance of this first encounter is the
fact that only 8 days earlier, in France, the first aircraft ever to be brought
down in aerial combat with a machine gun, an Aviatik, had been claimed by Sgt
Joseph Frantz using a Hotchkiss in a Voison V89.
The Japanese
Army imported two Nieuport monoplanes from France in 1913. One of these
aircraft was a Nieuport NG two seater and the other a Nieuport NM three seater.
They were both built in 1910 and of similar appearance. I have some photographs
of them, one of which shows armament consisting of a long-barreled weapon on a
makeshift tripod mounting, positioned to fire above the propeller.
Unfortunately the pilot is obscuring the weapon so that its type cannot be
discerned very well. It could be a Hotchkiss type machine gun - or just a heavy
rifle.
The
Nieuports appear to be in natural doped finish without markings, although I
have seen a profile from one source which depicts a Rising Sun flag painted on
the rudder.
I do not
think any of the Japanese aircraft involced in the Tsingtao campaign were lost
to enemy action.
Last dogfight
Posted By:
Barrett <btillman63@hotmail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 1:46 p.m.
USS
Yorktown's VF-88 conducted the last dogfight of WW II on 15 Aug, just over
Tokurozama Airfled. Of 6 Hellcats involved, 4 were lost. I find contradictory
sources of the number and types of Japanese a/c (9 were claimed destroyed), but
it may have been a mixed army-navy formation. Any hard evidence? One of the
VF-88 survivors, Maury Proctor, eventually met one of his opponents.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight(s)
Posted By:
Graham Boak <graham@agboak.freeserve.co.uk>
Date:
Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 3:49 a.m.
In Response
To: Last dogfight (Barrett)
I believe
that the Russian P-63 claim in Manchuria was later than August 15th, but I
don't have the correct date to hand.
The BPF
Seafire fight is usually regarded as the last WW2 dogfight.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Friday, 17 May 2002, at 2:46 p.m.
In Response
To: Last dogfight (Barrett)
I'm very
much a non-expert in late war info but I'll give you what I have available
since you haven't gotten any other hits yet.
You probably
already know that there were several combats reported that day from the US
side. Twenty-six of 45 Japanese fighters were claimed over Chosi, Atsugi, and
Sagami Wan. CAP shot down 8 aircraft approaching the fleet (a DD also claimed
one) and five were claimed on the ground at Hyakwigahara. Busy day for war's
end.
One combat
involved 302 Ku from Atsugi with four Raiden and eight Zeros under Lt Hiroshi
Morioka which engaged six Grummans. They claimed one and lost four.
Over Chiba
Prefecture 252 Ku also suffered at least two losses. I have no details of this
combat.
The JAAF
25th Independant Air Squadron also suffered a combat loss that date. No
details. This is probably a mis-identification as I cannot place such a unit in
the JAAF air defense OOB in July-August 45. 25th Fighter Training Unit should
have been in Korea. Possibly this is a garble for the 24th Ftr Tng Unit which
was part of the air defence OOB in Japan.
Hope this
may be of some help.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 6:12 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight (richard dunn)
I think
you're right about the misidentification of the 25th Ind Air Sqn. According to
my records this Toryu equipped unit was under command of 2nd Air Army in
July/August 1945 and stationed at Liaoyang, Manchuria.
It was
activated on 19 August 1944 and at the end of the war supposedly had on
strength 25 combat serviceable Ki-45, 25 officers, 80 NCO's and 236 OR's.
The reported
loss could have been referring to the 28th Ind Air Sqn, a Ki-46 unit, part of
1st Air Army, and stationed at Togane?
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara *PIC*
Posted By:
UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date:
Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 6:07 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight (richard dunn)
It's very
difficult to identify "which units" were involved and
"where" they were involved...
I guess more
dog fights might have happened than we expect.
As far as I
know, Morioka of 302 Ku (Sorry! I know it's Army page.) lost two A6M Type 0
Fighters and one J2M Raiden and USS LEXINGTON (the aouthor of the book says
"USS LEXINGTON".) lost four F6Fs over Atsugi City.
252 Ku
(stationed at Mobara Naval Air Base under the command of the Hikocho Lt. Cdr.
SHINGO, Hideki) lost at least five A6Ms and the RN lost two Seafires and one
British Avenger few hours before the end of the war. (But 252 Ku might had met
the USN planes at the same time.) As you know, fighting the enemy planes were
almost forbidden to prepare the "Hondo Kessen (The Battle of the
mainland)" and many units were allowed to intercept the enemy planes on
August 15, 1945. (The Japanese High Commands allowed many of them to fight the
enemies to "hide" the plan of surrender.)
I have no
more information now.
Source:
"Heavy
Clouds" by WATANABE, Yoji (Bungei Shunju)
"I Shot
Down A Spitfire On The Last Day Of The War" by Lt. (jg) ABE, Saburo
Photo: Lt. (jg) ABE, Saburo (credit: Kasumi
Shobo)
Editors
note: Picture at http://www02.so-net.ne.jp/~kasumi/Picture/Navy1.gif
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara
Posted By:
Jim Broshot <jbroshot@fidnet.com>
Date:
Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 7:09 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara *PIC* (UCHIDA, Katsuhiro)
"Four
days later [15 Aug 1944], in the Fleet Air Arm's final fighter combat of the
war, eight of a formation of twelve Japanese fighters were shot down by
Seafires of the 24th Naval Fighter Wing which were escorting an Avenger strike.
A Seafire and an Avenger were lost, the gunner of the latter disposing of
another Japanese fighter before ditching," from BRITISH NAVAL AVIATION (Sturtivant)
Aircraft in
Profile No. 221 identifies the FAA squadrons as Nos. 887 and 894 (from HMS
Indefatigable)
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara
Posted By:
Barrett <btillman63@hotmail.com>
Date:
Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:16 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara (Jim Broshot)
Things are
complicated by the fact that earlier overland combats involved San Jacinto's
VF-49 and Hancock's VF-6. Furthermore, Yorktown's Corsair fighter-bombers
engaged Myrts over Hokoda A/D shortly after the VF-88 action. The subsequent 5
splashes by USN a/c were all offshore.
Of the USN's
34 credited victories during the day, only one Oscar was involved besides the
Franks reported by VF-88, and that Ki-43 was in a fight that otherwise involved
only A6Ms. I suspect more and more that JAAF planes may not have engaged at
all. Proven incidents of JAAF/IJN planes flying mixed formations seem
exceedingly rare.
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara
Posted By:
Henry Sakaida
Date:
Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:27 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara (Barrett)
Barratt,
perhaps you better use the title THE LAST MAJOR DOGFIGHT OF WWII...I wrote an
article back in the 80s with the title THE LAST DOGFIGHT...and got some people
ragging on me! Well, it does keep us in line and makes sure that we cross our
Ts and dot our Is!
mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:"MS Mincho"'>Re:
Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara
Posted By:
Barrett <btillman63@hotmail.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 11:13 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Last dogfight over Atsugi and Mobara (Henry Sakaida)
Point well
taken Henry. I wondered about that when I posted this item, but looking at the
6-8 shootdowns that followed over the next several hours, none seemed worthy of
the "dogfight" title! The most kills claimed in one event was three,
and those were Myrts! I figger that a real dogfight needs at least a dozen
combatants!
We could
probably use up a lot of band width trying to define the term!
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