Miscellaneous Threads
 
Topics:
IDA / Ko-ren & LILY/ So-kei ??
Help Needed: Symbolism of "Mum" Mon *PIC*
Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers
Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
Camo and markings of IJA Fighters? (New)
Drugs...man! (New)
Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (New)
Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (New)
Manshu Ki-79 (New)
IJAAF Ops Malaya/Singapore (LONG) (New)
Munsell free conversion software (New)
Kawasaki Factory Finish *PIC* (New)
 
IDA / Ko-ren & LILY/ So-kei ??
 
Posted By: anthony noel <tonynoelshoki42@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 10:32 a.m.
 
I am interested in the translated abbreviations and/or acronyms utilized by the Army Air Force in the designation of service aircraft.
 
For example: thanks to the assistance of board participants I have previously determined that for the Type 100 Command Reconnaissance Plane (Ki-46 DINAH),
 
Shi-tei = Shireibu Teisatsuki = Command Reconnaisance
 
What about the Type 99 Advanced Trainer (Ki-55 IDA) ??
Ko-ren = ??
 
What about the Type 99 Light Bomber (Ki-48 LILY) ??
So-Kei = ??
 
Any assistance with this arcane inquiry will be most gratefully appreciated !!
 
Re: IDA / Ko-ren & LILY/ So-kei ??
 
Posted By: UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 8:31 p.m.
 
In Response To: IDA / Ko-ren & LILY/ So-kei ?? (anthony noel)
 
Ko-ren = Koto Renshuu-ki (Advanced Trainer)
 
So-kei = Sohatsu Kei-Bakugeki-ki (Dual Engine Light Bomber)
 
I hope this helps!
 
Help Needed: Symbolism of "Mum" Mon *PIC*
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 12:44 p.m.
 
Here's a question that I'm sure many of you will find rather esoteric...
 
Can anyone identify this blossom pattern (see below) as it applies to Japanese symbolism?
 
Chrysanthemum (kiku) or cherry blossom (sakura) makes the most sense to me but I can't seem to justify these due to the design conflict of 8 petals with notched ends. This design has the 'feel' of a chrysanthemum design, but the petal ends are the wrong shape and the chrysanthemum is a 16 petal design (24 when 'doubled' as with the emblem of the Imperial Court). The chrysanthemum is sometimes, though less commonly, depicted with 12 petals. The half chrysanthemum, such as is depicted in the 'Kikusui' (chrysanthemum on water) is usually shown with 8. The petal ends in this graphic are shaped like a cherry blossom, but the cherry blossom always has 5 petals (10 if doubled).
 
It is definitely not: orange, plum, lotus, dahlia, bellflower, etc... I think this blossom has a somewhat sunflower-like appearance, but I have no mention of this in my Japanese references (of course, the chrysanthemum has a sun association for obvious graphic reasons).
 
Could this be some variation on the blossom of a peach (momo)?
 
Usually the fruit itself is portrayed but sometimes the blossom is used. The peach blossom is portrayed with 8 petals and a button center but is usually depicted with 4 long & 4 short petals and the ends are not notched.
 
Re: Help Needed: Symbolism of "Mum" Mon
 
Posted By: Hiro Nagashima <phantom2@da2.so-net.ne.jp>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 6:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Help Needed: Symbolism of "Mum" Mon *PIC* (Don Marsh)
 
We Japanese call this "YAE ZAKURA". YAE means double-petaled.
ZAKURA is other pronounce of SAKURA.
Yes, this is double-petaled cherry blossom.
 
Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh@4444fuse.net>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 6:48 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Help Needed: Symbolism of "Mum" Mon (Hiro Nagashima)
 
Thank you for responding. As you read in my post, I had considered the 'sakura' since this is what it looks like most to me. But I was confused because this version has 8 petals. I thought about the possibility of the double cherry blossom (yae sakura) also, because that makes the most sense since there are more than the traditional 5 petals.
 
So may I ask...
Do you know of any traditional examples of the 'yae sakura' showning 8 petals as I have depicted?
 
Since tradition dictates 5 petals on the sakura, and 'yae', as you have mentioned, would double that, wouldn't that traditionally make the number 10?
 
I value your insight.
 
Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism
 
Posted By: Hiro Nagashima <phantom2@da2.so-net.ne.jp>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 12:32 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism (Don Marsh)
 
Yes, "YAE" is 8 petals.
 
May be my Japanese English dictionary is not so good.
It says double-petaled(flowers) ex. Some roses are double,others single.
 
In my Japanese dictionary says as follows
YAE ZAKURA: Kind of cherry blossom. It has 8 petals and darker color than single.
It blooms later than other cherry blossom.
 
Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh@4444fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 9:32 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism (Hiro Nagashima)
 
Your English/Japanese dictionary is fine. Thank you for the clarification and the additional information, not to mention the beautiful photographic images. You have been of tremendous help.
 
Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism
 
Posted By: Ed DeKiep <eddekiep@novagate.com>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 10:08 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism (Don Marsh)
 
As I'm sure you are aware, the blossom you have drawn looks like the emblem of the 78th Sentai. This emblem is eight number sevens, arranged in a circular pattern like the petals centered around a button, so that it looks like a blossom. The sevens are even modified with an extension downward from the center of the horizontal leg of the number seven to give the notch at the end of the petal. Perhaps this was intended to duplicate an actual blossom from nature, but I'd bet that artistic license was employed, deliberately using only eight petals to follow the theme of sevens (petals), numbering eight to achieve "78".
 
Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh@4444fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 9:29 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Help Needed: BlossomSymbolism (Ed DeKiep)
 
You have a keen eye. This is in fact a straight floral representation of the insignia of the 78 FR. I also have finished the actual art for this marking and I'm just trying to dig a bit deeper. As you have suggested, since the begining of this project, I too believe that a certain amount of artistic license was employed to achieve the requisite design. I think the design representing the 78 FR is a truly ingenious and beautiful work of art.
 
Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers
 
Posted By: "Taisho" Takeshi Okuda
Date: Friday, 10 August 2001, at 12:47 a.m.
 
Were any of the Army's planes transported aboard any of the navy's carriers during the war? Perhaps aboard the escort carriers "Kaiyo" and "Taiyo". I am having trouble looking for such info.
 
Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers *PIC*
 
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 11:47 p.m.
 
In Response To: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers ("Taisho" Takeshi Okuda)
 
Here is a photo showing Army aircraft aboard the carrier "Chuyo". They look like Ki-46 II "Dinah" to me. The photo is taken from Maru Special 38, published 1980.
If you´d like a scan of the caption, please contact me directly and I´ll send it to you (it was on the opposite page of the photo). The book also has some other photos of Army planes on Navy escort carriers that I could e-mail as well if you´re interested!
 
Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi
Date: Sunday, 12 August 2001, at 3:18 a.m.
 
In Response To: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers ("Taisho" Takeshi Okuda)
 
I think there was a photo of Ki61s on board the Taiyo, heading to PNG.
 
Transplanting Lilys
 
Posted By: Ryan Boerema <ryann1k2j@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 10 August 2001, at 1:44 p.m.
 
In Response To: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers ("Taisho" Takeshi Okuda)
 
Per Richard Bueschel's Aircam Aviation Series on the Ki-48 Sokei, "By January 1943, at the rate of about 50 aircraft per month, the JAAF units began to move across the central Pacific. The fighters and 99 Sokei (Lily) light bombers were ferried to Truk on the auxilary carriers Chuyo, Taiyo and Unyo, where they were then re-fitted for ;tropical use and flown to Rabaul on the last leg of the long delivery route." I'm sure they weren't flown off the carriers, though that would be fun.
 
Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers
 
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <bsanborn@psemc.com>
Date: Friday, 10 August 2001, at 8:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers ("Taisho" Takeshi Okuda)
 
According to Francillion in "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War," the KI-76 command liaison plane and KA-1 autogyro were operated from the Army light escort carrier, Akitsu Maru, as anti-submarine patrol aircraft. Beyond that I have not seen any other mention of Army aircraft on carriers. There are also some pictures of the KI-76 on the carrier in Bunrindo's "Japanese Military Aircraft Illustrated, Vol. 3."
 
Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers >
 
>Posted By: Bruce Bowen <bryza@snowcrest.net>
Date: Friday, 10 August 2001, at 5:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers (Bill Sanborn)
 
I don't know much about how the Japanese General Escort Command worked but Ki-48 and Ki-51 aircraft were used by GEC for anti-submarine patrols. I believe the GEC was formed in 1943. Maybe someone could throw in some more bits of the puzzle. Like, did GEC aircraft have special markings?
Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers
 
Posted By: Allan Alsleben <Wildcat42@AOL.com>
Date: Monday, 13 August 2001, at 12:12 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Army Aircraft trasnported by IJN carriers (Bruce Bowen)
 
They did and here is the following:
KEA was for 901fg (General Escort)
KEB was for 931fg (General Escort)
KEC was for 453fg (General Escort)
 
While there were other units Naval involved, the Army assisted but as to which units, I've not been able to determine. >
 
Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
 
Posted By: Mike Yeo <mikeyeo@bigpond.com>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001, at 6:45 a.m.
 
A while ago, Mr James Lansdale posted a series of photos on the Tachikawa Test Centre. Among these were some photos of a B-17 and Dutch CW-21s in Tachikawa Test Centre colours found by the Allies after retaking Singapore. A search of older messages led me to the relevant posts, but the links to the photos no longer work. I therefor hope that Mr Lansdale or anyone who saved the posted photos could re-post them here or email them to me at mikeyeo@bigpond.com
 
Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001, at 7:58 a.m.
 
In Response To: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17 (Mike Yeo) 
 
Go to the link below
 
(http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/index.htm).
 
Click on the type of aircraft you wish to view.
 
Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
 
Posted By: Mike Yeo <mikeyeo@bigpond.com>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001, at 8:12 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17 (James F. Lansdale)
 
What is the model of the Tachikawa "Singapore branch" B-17? Is it a B-17E or an early F? Do you have any more background information about this aircraft?
 
Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001, at 2:42 p.m. 
 
In Response To: Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17 (Mike Yeo)
 
Hi Mike
 
I dunno the model! Someone else can comment, but I believe two were Ds. The B-17s were captured by the Japanese at Clark Field and other bases in the Philippines, as well as in the Netherlands East Indies (Indonesia).
 
Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001, at 2:53 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Repost Request: Tachikawa Test Centre B-17 (James F. Lansdale)
 
All the early war B-17s (other than the original Cs and Ds --and the Cs were modified to D standards) were B-17Es. This includes the replacement aircraft for the 19th (originally equiped as above), the 7th BG (which was sent to India after the NEI campaign) and even the 11th arriving in SoPac in July 1942. The first 29 Fs were sent to the area in August 1942. First to arrive was No. 41-24446. Originally assigned to the 19th but diverted to the 11th. Then came the 43d primarily equipped with Fs.
 
None of the captives from P.I. or NEI would have been Fs.
 
Camo and markings of IJA Fighters?
 
Posted By: Micah Bly <yak@targetrabaul.com>
Date: Friday, 25 January 2002, at 9:42 a.m.
 
I have the Model Art camo/markings books for IJN Fighters, IJN Bombers, and IJA bombers... I *think* the IJA fighters book is out of print. Does anyone know if it is going to be updated and re-released? We could really use some help with Ki-45 schemes, and I'm guessing that would be the book to have.
 
Re: Camo and markings of IJA Fighters?
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 25 January 2002, at 5:31 p.m.
 
In Response To: Camo and markings of IJA Fighters? (Micah Bly)
 
I don't know about any updating of MA #325: IJAAF Camo & Markings (perhaps George has some knowledge of this) but I think the ultimate Ki-45 reference is FAOW #21 [Nick].
 
While there are some good profiles and photos in MA #595: IJAAF Night Fighters, and a few other pics & profiles in MA #451 (IJAAF Suicide Attack Units) and MA #416: Medaled Pilots of the JAAF in WWII, and a hand full of KKF's, all of these are rehashings of the supelative FAOW #21.
 
One other publication I might mention is KKF Illustrated #80, which has one of the best selections of great Ki-45 photos you'll ever see. While only one section of this publication, that section focuses on the 53 FR and shows large, crystal clear photos that are not printed anywhere else, unlike most publications that show the same collection of pic.
 
Since Nick is one of my favorite Japanese a/c, I'd love to see a MA dedicated to just it. But it would probably end up just being a reformated version of FAOW #21.
 
Re: Camo and markings of IJA Fighters?
 
Posted By: Micah Bly <yak@targetrabaul.com>
Date: Saturday, 26 January 2002, at 11:35 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Camo and markings of IJA Fighters? (Don Marsh)
 
Thanks for the FAOW suggestion. I guess I'll stick it on my HLJ list and hope it comes before the next ice age.
 
Too bad about them not updating MA 325, that one's hard to come by. We're not doing any night fighters right now, and probably not any suicide units (that's a touchy issue for some folks), so it sounds like I'll be okay with just FAOW 21
 
Drugs...man!
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2002, at 5:35 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Osprey B-29 Hunters...see p. 26 (Henry Sakaida)
 
(let me lower the volume of Ozzy Osbourne's "Flying high again" a bit...okay, here we go)
A friend mentioned that most Japanese Night fighter pilots had drug addiction problems because they were taking some short of medicine to sharpen their view during the night. Forgot the name of the drug...
Any comments?
 
"PERVITIN"
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com>
Date: Wednesday, 30 January 2002, at 1:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Drugs...man! (Elephtheriou George)
 
METHAMPHETAMINE (PERVITIN) was widely issued and used by the Luftwaffe and other German forces to fight drowsiness and increase alertness - I understand other armed forces, including the US, also used it, before the advent of "Speed kills"
 
Re: Drugs...man! *PIC*
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi
Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2002, at 6:20 p.m.
 
In Response To: Drugs...man! (Elephtheriou George)
 
I think a kind of stimulant, but it was not limited to night fighter pilots.
 
Stimulants were sold in drug stores until the late 40's or the early 50's, HIROPON being a popular brand. Sakai-san and others have also commented that they received shots of this drug along with nutrients in Rabaul where they virtually fought 24/7.
 
In my copy of Koku-Asahi magazine in 1942, there is an ad of the drug, stating that it will recover fatigue, drives away sleepiness and sharpens the mind. It also states that the manufacturer will send brochures to schools!
 
Editors note: Picture at http://homepage2.nifty.com/02366/tohoho/hiro.jpg
 
HIROPON = methamphetimine
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com>
Date: Wednesday, 30 January 2002, at 1:05 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Drugs...man! *PIC* (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)
 
Do a "Google" search, FYI
 
Re: Drugs...man!
 
Posted By: Henry Sakaida
Date: Wednesday, 30 January 2002, at 11:15 a.m.
 
In Response To: Drugs...man! (Elephtheriou George)
 
I see that Hiroyuki-san has answered your questions! I can confirm that nightfighter ace at Rabaul ( I think he was Ono?) reported that to increase his night vision, he was given an injection. I was incredulous because I had never heard of anything like that before!!! I was just trying to be funny with Gene...but WOW!
Thank you Hiroyuki-san!
 
Re: (natural) Drugs...man!
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Wednesday, 30 January 2002, at 2:35 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Drugs...man! (Henry Sakaida)
 
As a sidebar, I have read that RAF pilots who flew at night during the war found bilberry juice helped their night vision.
 
The story (if true) explained that a certain pilot was having trouble with his night vision, and the pilot's grandmother gave him some bilberry jam. He felt it did help him- and when he reported this to his commander a study was done and found the claim to be true.
 
Bilberry is pretty rare to find at stores (Whole Foods is a chain in the US that carries it), but it is very delicious and also helps with other ailments as well.
 
Re: (natural) Drugs...man!
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, 31 January 2002, at 9:11 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: (natural) Drugs...man! (Dan Salamone)
 
I think nothing can improve the night vision but gossips like this for a time helped to keep airborne radar secret.
 
When "Cat Eyes" Cunningham started a steady score of kills, RAF had to find a reason for it and they said, this part is hilarious, that Cunningham had already very good night vision which was improved more by eating enourmous amount of carrots :))) Much to his resentment, he was nicknamed "Cat Eyes" since
 
I wonder if any Luftwaffe nightflier tried this technique :)
 
Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Wawrzyniec Markowski <marwaj@poczta.onet.pl>
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 11:07 a.m.
 
I am looking for information about Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17. Especially units, photos and camouflage.
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2002, at 10:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
I'll send you a couple scans of photos showing Ki-17 (Cedar) and Ki-59 (Theresa)...
I'll also send you what the school unit markings look like that are said by Fancillon to have been worn by Ki-17s.
 
Regarding the Ki-59: Since performance was so disappointing, only 59 a/c were built. Consequently, the only units to operate this a/c were most probably a few schools. I have no information as to which schools these might be. The only photos I can find of a Ki-59 wearing unit markings show it at Mito, so your safe with that choice.
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 *PIC*
 
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <bsanborn@psemc.com>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2002, at 7:43 a.m.
 
In Response To: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
Maybe this KI-17 graphic will help.
 
Graphic from the Choroszy Modelbud web page(http://www.modelbud.pl)
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.modelbud.pl/planes/A07.jpg
Link: http://www.nkrmodels.com.au/
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 5:53 p.m.
 
In Response To: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
Francillon lists the Ki-17 as assigned to the Kumagaya, Mito, Tachiarai and Utsonomiya flying schools as well as the Air Academy (Koku Shikan Gakko).
 
The overall colour would be trainer orange with the louvered fuselage section behind the engine in black.
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 *PIC*
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 1:00 p.m.
 
In Response To: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
Not exactly what you ask but I have just seen this perhaps it might give some idea.
 
I am not sure but tail marking is similar to that of Hammamatsu Training Center, and the color of a/c gives the same impression "Hey Beaware this is a trainee in orange don't come close"
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.hannants.co.uk/pics/AVRK076.JPG
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2002, at 10:04 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 *PIC* (Deniz Karacay)
 
You wrote:"I am not sure but tail marking is similar to that of Hammamatsu Training Center"
 
You are correct, the marking portrayed on this Ki-59 is that of Hamamatsu. The art posted shows this marking (and all the others) with yellow outlines. This yellow may appear here due to poor print quality. The surrounds on a trainer-colored a/c would almost certainly be white. Also, in the case of Hamamatsu, I seriously doubt the use of any surround at all on the tail marking.
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2002, at 11:36 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Don Marsh)
 
Thanks for the tip. Yes there must be something wrong with the image since we don't get to see Hinomarus with yellow outlines? I appriciate your excellent attention in detail.
 
And as for the color wasn't it supposed to be more orange like those in A6M2/5-Ks?
 
Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2002, at 12:11 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kokusai Ki-59 & Tachikawa Ki-17 (Deniz Karacay)
 
I'm a "markings guy" and so yield to the experts like Mr Lansdale, et al, on matters of color. But I'm pretty sure the trainer-color in that Ki-59 post is way off. Donald Thorpe calls this color "red orange," and MA #329 says the formal name for this color is "orange-yellow." I'm sure there were tint variations from batch to batch and the color was said to fade quickly in the field. I'd check some of the threads here at J-a/c dot com for exact FS numbers.
 
Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play?
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 3:15 p.m.
 
Sorry if this looks like a stupid question, but I'm quite new to Japanese aviation in WW II.
 
Yesterday I picked up Aeromaster sheet 48-174 "Special Attack Squadrons" on the Ki-84 Hayate. Featured are 182 Shinbu-Tai and 57 Shinbu-Tai.
 
Were these units kamikaze units? If so, did pilots fly other missions (and in what role) before being committed to their final one?
If not kamikaze units, what did they do?
 
Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play?
 
Posted By: Larry <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 7 January 2002, at 6:34 a.m.
 
In Response To: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (Erik Bosch)
 
I have a note on "Shimbu" special attack units ("tokkotai")taken from surviving Japanese records: In March 1945 it was reported that 18, 19, 26, 45 and 47 "Shimbu" Tokkotai were allocated to the 30th Fighter Flying Group (30 Sentô Hikô Shudan)in eastern Honshû for eventual use against enemy (U.S.) carrier task forces operating off the coast of Honshû, especially off the Tôkyô - Kantô Plain area. These special attack (kamikaze) units had anywhere from 2 to 15 fighters each, but the type was not given in the document. Notice the difference in spelling: "Shimbu" in the document and "Shinbu" in your material.
 
You referred to units numbered 57 and 182. Was there or do you have any additional information, such as where they were located and to whom they belonged?
 
Shinbu-Tai or Shimbu-Tai?
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Monday, 7 January 2002, at 7:58 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (Larry)
 
I've run a search on Shimbu-Tai and this created a few more webpages than my first search. I guess it's up to a Japanese how to convert the characters to Western letters... Bot versions seem to be in use.
 
BTW, in a thread started by Bennet on the Ki-84 of 57 Shinbu-Tai lower on the forum there is a gentleman who wrote that a picture or artwork on Cpl Takano's Hayate can be found in Model Art 451 IIRC.
 
Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play?
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Monday, 7 January 2002, at 7:50 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (Larry)
 
All I have is the info on Aeromaster decalsheet 48-174 (see www.eaglestrikeproductions.com for the colors on these a/c).
 
They list the a/c from 182 Shinbu-Tai as flown by their commander, 1st Lt. Iwamoto from Tatebayashi, Japan in August 1945.
 
The next two a/c are from 57 Shinbu-Tai, one flown by the Sentai-leader 2nd Lt. Ito, May 17, and one flown by Cpl. Takano also May 1945 from Shimodate in Japan.
 
Interestingly enough on the spelling issue, I ran a search through Google on Shinbu-Tai and one of the finds was an essay written by a Japanese student titled "Who were the Kamikaze Pilots and how did they feel towards their mission" or similar words. She used the word Shinbu-Tai. I'll run a search on Shimbu-Tai now -to be continued-
 
Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play?
 
Posted By: Larry <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 7 January 2002, at 9:32 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (Erik Bosch)
 
Thanks for the additional input on 57 and 182. There were so many of these JAAF and JNAF tokko (kamikaze) units that no one has ever been able to come up with a complete list. Most Western authors have stated that too many records were destroyed in August 1945 to make the reconstruction of a definitive list possible.
 
Hopefully, one of our Japanese participants will be able to sort out "Shinbu" and "Shimbu" for us. The word means something in Japanese and therefore there is probably only one correct way to spell it.
 
Re:Shinbu-Shimbu ("M & Ns")
 
Posted By: ted bradstreet <tbstreet@mint.net>
Date: Saturday, 12 January 2002, at 6:18 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Shinbu-Tai, what role did they play? (Larry)
 
I'm not Japanese, but AFAIK, Japanese has only one nasal consonant, usually represented by "n." In English, we don't permit "n" before "p" or "b." The Japanese, being courteous, have, in past, allowed representation of their nasal as "m" before our "p" and "b." The (phonlogically) "correct" way is "n," however, and that's why you find thoroughly modern Japanese (using their latest orthography) writing "Koku Honbu" and "shinbu-tai"...
 
Because one will continue to encounter multiple orthographies (non-Japanese ways of writing Japanese) for a long time to come, consider "m" and "n" interchangeable before "p" and "b" in all Japanese words written in romaji (unless, of course, you are trying to WRITE being faithful to a particular orthography). Remember the "correct" spelling of a Japanese word always depends on the particular orthography being used, and there are a BUNCH.
 
Aren't you glad you opened up this topic?
 
Re:Shinbu-Shimbu ("M & Ns")
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 13 January 2002, at 3:37 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re:Shinbu-Shimbu ("M & Ns") (ted bradstreet)
 
Agree, Mr. Bradstreet. Excellent interpretation. Interestingly, AFAICH (as far as I can hear!) Japanese pronounce the letter combination "mb", not clearly "nb", although they write it that way.
Examples: 1) "benpi" (constipation). Pronounced "bempi". Written "be-n-pi" in Hiragana.
 
2) "ganbare" (have courage/endure/hang in there!/ good luck!/insist). Pronounced "gambare", not like "gun+bar+e" or "cabaret". Written "ga-n-ba-re" in Hiragana.
 
Now how about this: which is correct? "Shiden", "Shinden" or "Senden"? But I quess you already know the answer...
 
Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Wawrzyniec Markowski <marwaj@poczta.onet.pl>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 11:02 a.m.
 
I am looking for information about Ki-79.
Especially information about units ang camouflage of Ki-79.
If you have a picture of this plane (photos or drawings), please, share it.
 
Re: Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Henry Sakaida
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 8:20 a.m.
 
In Response To: Manshu Ki-79 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
Check out www.tailhook.org/catfgt.htm
My coauthor and I did an article for the Tailhook Association publication concerning the 39KFR training unit which used Ki-79 and had a viciouos encounter with Grumman Hellcats.
 
Re: Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 9:21 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Manshu Ki-79 (Henry Sakaida)
 
Hajimemashite Sakaida sama. Akemashite omedeto gozaimasu.
A very pleasant surprise to see a posting from you in the site. Thank you very much for pointing the article. Excellently done, very informative, extremely interesting.
Hope to see more postings from you.
 
Honto ni arigato gozaimasu.
 
Regarding the Ki-79.
There is an interesting article with 5 photos and fantastic illustrations in 1/48 scale in a very old issue of the magazine "Hobby Japan" (No.93, May 1977). Better not ask about availability.... (Merci JCC).
A small article (1 page) in the "W.W.II Imperial Japanese Army Aircraft" with 2 photos found also in other publications (MA #451). Published by Air World, 1995.
Another small article (1 page too), this time with data and a different photo, can be found in Koku Fan's "Pictorial History. Japanese Army Aircraft" published in 1972 (different from the previous publication of 1969). Availability...
Finally, another small article (2 pages) with two photos (one same, one different) together with 4 view illustrations and data, can be found in Koku Fan Illustrated No. 69 (April '93). Availability, out of print but can be found second hand.
 
Re: Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Craig Pearson <craigcp@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 5:23 p.m.
 
In Response To: Manshu Ki-79 (Wawrzyniec Markowski)
 
I have been reserching the Manchu Ki-79 also....and have had limited sucess. I did buy an out of print book "Aircam Aviation Series # 18" which covers in detail about the Ki-27A/B, and Ki-79A/B. My ultimate goal is to convert the 48th scale Hasagawa Ki-27 into the single seat Ki-79a. The only problem is the information I have doesn't detail the diffences in engine and cowling area. The book mentioned above has alot of color plates and black/white photos of both Ki-79a and Ki-79b. Other books that have Ki-79 pictures and plates are "Emblems of the Rising Sun" and "Broken Wings of the Samurai" (Ki-79b pg 179). If I had a scanner, I could offer a little more help.
 
Re: Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Saturday, 12 January 2002, at 12:26 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Manshu Ki-79 (Craig Pearson)
 
I have built a single seat Ki-79 in 1/72 scale using the Hasegawa Ki-27 with a modified engine and cowling from the Fujimi Ki-36/55. Headrest/rollover fairing began life as half an Airfix Me-109 underwing cannon gondola!
 
Trouble is - the Ki-36/55 in 1/48th is a challenge - I only know of the Gull vacform!
 
Re: Manshu Ki-79
 
Posted By: Rui Aballe <rhino@mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2002, at 5:00 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Manshu Ki-79 (Tadeusz Januszewski)
 
I have the RS Models 1/72 resin kit of the Ki-79 single-seater. From a modelling standpoint, it is an excellent little kit, actually one of the best ever produced by RS. However, I lack any relevant details and references on the aircraft. Is there anything somewhere I should look for?
 
P.S.: Btw, is there any recorded combat emergency usage of this, or for that matter other IJA trainers? By that I mean orthodox missions, not suicidal ones.
 
IJAAF Ops Malaya/Singapore (LONG)
 
Posted By: Mark Haselden <mark_rae@msn.com>
Date: Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 3:36 p.m.
 
The following data was extracted from Public Records Office file AIR 23/4639 “Air operations in Malaya before the fall of Singapore” in the UK. It was written in 1946 by Colonels Shin, Ishikawa, Katsuji and Dozone who were instructors at the General Staff College. The text was enlarged by Col Minoru Miyako, Chief Staff Officer in charge of 3rd Air Corps Operations.
I have some queries which I shall leave until the end. Hope you can help:
 
******************************************************************************
The 3rd Air Brigade comprised the 59th, 90th and 27th Air Regiments and attacked Malaya six times during 15-20 Dec 41, using Nakong as its base. Some 67 planes were engaged in the attack on Ipoh (39 fighters, 6 assault and 22 light bombers) – 14 RAF aircraft were claimed as either shot down or destroyed on the ground.
 
Ten RAF fighters were engaged on 13 Dec 41, with 5 aircraft being lost including the commander of the 59th Regt.
 
3rd Air Brigade gradually advanced to Sungei Patani on 19 Dec 41.
 
When 64th Regt advanced to Alor Star from Kota Bharu, it made a surprise attack on Kuala Lumpur on 22 Dec 41. 15 RAF fighters were claimed as shot down for the loss of only one “suicide plane.”
 
Allied strength in Singapore during Jan 42 estimated at 60 fighters (including Hurricanes and Buffalos), 20 bombers (mainly Blenheims), 10 seaplanes (mainly “Consolidated”).
 
Document notes the use of a small night fighter force to defend Singapore in early Jan 42.
 
12 Jan – “only 16 enemy aircraft shot down” on this day!
 
26 Jan, 12th Air Brigade engaged 51 enemy (RAF) fighters and bombers over Endau – shot down 40. At 1635hrs, 9 aircraft of 11 Air Combat Unit of 12 Air Brigade were patrolling Endau when 30 enemy fighters and bombers attacked. One more squadron (9 aircraft) of 1st Air Combat Unit participated. Combat lasted 30 minutes, with 24 enemy planes shot down for 2 losses. At 1900 hrs, 18 enemy fighters came in to attack. One squadron of the 1st Air Combat Unit and the 47th Independent Air Squadron intercepted and shot down 15 planes for no losses. At 2000, 6 bombers attacked and were intercepted by one squadron of the 11th Air Combat Unit with one plane being shot down for no losses. “Nearly all the enemy air force in Singapore, which until now had been hiding, was destroyed.”
 
Losses: 331 planes from beginning to end, 50% of losses due to combat the other half due to pilot error, poor airfield maintenance, and enemy strafing. A further 46 aircraft were lost “during concentration due to bad weather” (i.e. collided!).
 
Losses by type:
 
Type 1 Fighter – 65% [Equates to 36 aircraft]
Type 99 Assault – 60% [Equates to 17 aircraft]
Type 97 Fighter – 30% [Equates to 54 aircraft]
Type 99 Twin Engined Bomber – 36% [Equates to 17 aircraft]
Type 97 Heavy Bomber – 25% [Equates to at least 17 aircraft]
 
These losses were replenished by 270 replacement aircraft.
 
Some 582 personnel were lost, including 73 officers, and most of the lost personnel were aircrew. Replacement personnel did not really start to arrive until Feb 42 and event then the training standard of the new personnel was relatively poor.
 
233 aircraft were claimed as shot down, with “279 by gun”
 
******************************************************************************
 
I believe that the IJAAF records show the combat loss of only 3 Ki-43s during attacks on Malaya - one on 22 Dec and a pair due to a mid-air collision (hence not strictly combat!) on 13 Dec. If the figures in the account are to be believed, proportionately 18 Oscars ought to have been shot down in combat. Is it reasonable to expect that 15 of this aircraft type were lost during the attacks on Singapore with no others being lost during the fighting for Malaya?
 
Do these Japanese losses indicate a far more effective air defence effort than has previously been ascribed to the Buffalo and Hurricane pilots defending Malaya and Singapore?
 
What might the term “by gun” mean in the tally of claims? Surely the Japanese did not have sufficient AAA to claim 279 kills using this method? My suspicion is that a mistranslation took place and that the 279 aircraft were claimed as destroyed on the ground by bombing and strafing raids. Anybody else got any thoughts?
 
Apart from the interesting kill claims which actually amount to far more aircraft than were available in the entire Malaya theatre, are there any other items that experts out there find interesting?
 
Re: IJAAF Ops Malaya/Singapore (LONG)
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 5:59 p.m.
 
In Response To: IJAAF Ops Malaya/Singapore (LONG) (Mark Haselden)
 
The document to which you refer is also known as Japanese Monograph No. 55 in the "Japanese Monograph" series sponsered by the post-war Allied occupation forces in Japan(authored by members of the Japanese 'Demobilization Bureaus'). I considered it reliable enough to cite it as authority for a minor proposition in my research article on Type 1 fighter armament published on this web-site.
 
The Japanese monographs are of very uneven quality. Some have been published in book form, others have been well edited but not published, some have been merged, others are of lesser value and some are trash.
 
The value is dependent upon many factors one of which is access of the authors to relevant reliable documents. The authors of this particular monograph seem to have had access to a number of relevant documents. They do not seem particularly adept at interpreting and elucidating their primary documentation. I would use this document with extreme care. It has never been put out in published form or subjected to a rigorous edit.
 
Valuable but must be used with circumspection and care. Just my opinion.
 
Munsell free conversion software
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com>
Date: Tuesday, 6 November 2001, at 5:27 a.m.
 
This software will convert Munsell to RGB or CMYK - you can then input into your software of choice to display / print a "chip".
 
Link: http://63.122.206.38/cmc/index.htm
 
Kawasaki Factory Finish *PIC*
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 5:07 a.m.
 
Research continues into the factory applied colors of the IJAAF aircraft of WW II. Utilizing relics found in the National Archives MIS files, as well as pieces of aircraft in private collections, it is fairly certain that the Kawasaki aircraft company applied one color to the majority of their multi-engined aircraft.
 
Below is one sample of this color, as compared to the Federal Standards FS 595B color chart. This relic is from a Kawasaki Ki-48 Lily, s/n 2106. The color is very close to FS-16160. This sample has not yet been been given a forensic analysis by the Conservation Analytical Laboratory (CAL) of NASM. Therefore, it is possible that the "khaki" tone may be due to yellowing of the paint binder. Another sample from a Lily, s/n 248, is decidedly a more gray-green hue. Samples of relics from both of these Lilys had developed a somewhat gray patina due to weathering when collected by Dr. Charles DARBY. However, protected areas on Lily, s/n 2106, were the color illustrated in the sample below (right).
 
Another sample from a Kawasaki Ki-45 Nick, s/n 1023, in the National Archives, which has been protected from weathering since collected in 1943, is a close match to FS-16350/24201 gray-green.
 
When these pieces are photographed in bright sunlight, utilizing panchromatic film, the tone of the finish is decidedly much lighter in such photographs than presented here (below) in color. The monochrome tone produced is very much like the tone perceived in wartime photographs of the Luftwaffe Heinkel He-51 fighters known to be in the color called "RLM Grau 02." It is also known that Kawasaki had German aeronautical engineers on its staff. For these reasons, it has been conjectured that Kawasaki very likely used a paint finish on their multi-engine aircraft which approximated the color RLM Grau 02.
 
More samples are being collected and analyzed in order to better affirm the paint finishes applied by Kawasaki to its products at the factory level.
 
Credit: Charles Darby via LRA
 
Editors note: Photo at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-48_2106_relic.jpg