- AIRCRAFT COLOURS
Topics:
Pre-WWII Aircraft
Ki-84
Japanese Aircraft in
Foreign Markings
German Aircraft in Japanese
Markings
IJN Grey (New)
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 1 August 2000, at 7:19 a.m.
Jim
Research and a selection of aircraft relics from aircraft produced by the
Kawasaki aircraft company demonstrate their usual practice of leaving their
single-engined aircraft in natural metal with silver doped fabric surfaces.
The pre-war Ki-10 Perry may have been painted with aluminum dope for the early
production models and, later, left the factory in hairyokushoku (gray-green).
Kawasaki's twin-engined products, perhaps because of a strong German
influence, were usually painted overall in a color close to FS-16350
hairyokushoku (similar to RLM grau). This went on until late in the war when
factory-applied camouflage was initiated.
I also believe, from the tone of the b/w photos, that the Kawasaki Ki-78 was
natural metal on roll out (Aireview "GVJMAPW," p.52). It,
apparently, was repainted later with a high gloss coat of, what may have been
close to the color of FS-16350 with red and white stripes or rectangles
(orientation/photo aim points?) on the starboard fuselage and and upper
surface of the starboard wing (op.cit. p. 56 top). Another opinion is that
this gloss top coat was actually a high-visibility so-called "akatonbo"
("red dragonfly" trainer color).
Interpreting b/w photos is risky at best, however, Francois WEILL has
demonstrated that you may be able to distinguish natural aluminum panels from
aluminum painted surfaces in b/w photos. I would check with him.
IHTH
Jim Lansdale
Posted By: David_Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 8:43 a.m.
Aloha All,
Here is a sample of fabric from the Oka which was at the Victory Air Museum
years ago. The museum had over painted the Japanese light green color with
gray. Fortunately, I was able to examine this fabric in direct sunlight. The
museum's gray was peeling off, while the light blueish green had a firm grasp
of the primer.
The FS 595 numbers are meant for current US military, so we know that
nothing may match direct -but it makes for an economical guide. The sample was
slightly bluer than FS*4410 and about FS*5414 but not as dark.
Upon obtaining those results, I accessed Robert Mikesh's letter from 1997
which told of the NASM restoration color with the same FS595 comparison. I
still seek the Japanese designation of this color which seems different than
the Owaki reference and 0266 document which I accessed.
I use the "three watch research" program: If you have one watch
you KNOW what time it is. If you have TWO watches, you don't. If you have
THREE, well, two out of three is a step toward consensus. This Oka fabric is
the #2 "watch" for this color. Is there are third?
Cheers,
David Aiken
Re: I-18 in color video capture *PIC*
Posted By: David_Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Aloha All,
Tis nice to see that the closeup of the modern Oka relic [scan of 14 Aug
8:43AM] shows more green, but when backing away (as in this video capture of
Oka I-18, kindly supplied by Claus Kruger) we get the old, tried and true gray
we came to know and love.
Same phenomina showed up in the close scan of J3 [13 Sep 4:17PM] then back
away some ten-twenty feet [13 Sep 8:14PM] to get a gray paint.
In 1/72 scale what color phenomina should we portray?
Cheers,
David
Re: Another Oka, What is Japanese Designation? *PIC*
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 30 September 2000, at 3:27 p.m.
In Response To: Another Oka, What is Japanese Designation? *PIC* (David_Aiken)
Aloha David!
A preliminary analysis of the relic sample, allegedly from Ohka [I-13] s/n
1081 captured on Okinawa, has been completed. The sample was provided by M.W.
KASNER. With the sample came a photograph of the derelict Baka from which it
came taken by Earl REINERT of Arlington Heights, IL in 1966 which you showed
in your posting.
A contemporary photo of Ohka [I-13] taken in 1945 on Okinawa appears below
with the sample analyzed. (Ed. Note: photo could not be
downloaded)
The fabric is a fine weave material which is UNLIKE the more coarse material
used on the control surfaces of Japanese aircraft. The curvature and texture
of the material is more like the fabric used by the Japanese to wrap around
the wooden drop tanks of the Zero. This has led to a preliminary conclusion
that the sample may be from the surface of the wooden wings or tail surfaces.
The upper surfaces have been painted with two coats of paint in different
colors. You wrote that, "The sample was slightly bluer than FS*4410 and
about FS*5414 but not as dark."
My analysis is that the first coat of paint is very similar to a "duck
egg green" and is a close match to a semi-gloss FS-14516 (Munsell match
5G 8/2). No colored base primer is evident. The outer or top coat is a close
match to FS-16314/16307 (a standard undersurface color found on many late-war
IJN aircraft). No exact visual match was made on the Munsell color chart,
however it was close to Munsell 10 BG 6/1.
The outer color of paint had weathered to a flat light gray which matched
FS-26493. Is it possible both, one, or neither of these paint layers is/are
original to this bird?
Katsushi will soon get a sample for his analysis.
I hope this helps with your quest for true Ohka colors.
Jim Lansdale
Posted By: Bill Dedig <wedjr@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 23 July 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
I am working on the 1/48 scale B5N Kate from the carrier "KAGA"
from Pearl Harbor. Just trying to confirm the color scheme. I am sure IJN
Green on the upper surfaces, but am not positive about the under surface. Gray
or Natural Metal ??? Also any information regarding the interior of the
lowered flaps. Metal, bluish coating,Green ???
Thanks in advance for any help.
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tuesday, 24 July 2001, at 5:30 p.m.
In Response To: B5N Kate Color (Bill Dedig)
Hi Bill,
Here is a match to the underside color of the B5N from Kaga which crashed at
the Navy Hospital at Pearl Harbor 12-7-41. It is from a piece of skin from the
underside of the left outer wing. Model Master enamels were used.
40 parts 'Faded Olive Drab' stock # 2051
28 parts 'Armor Sand' FS 30277 # 1704
26 parts white FS 37875 # 1768
1 part black
If you like, you can add 25% white to the total volume of the mix for scale
effect. The original paint on the artifact is very glossy so you will want to
use a gloss clear coat on your model. The upper side of the plane was densely
mottled dark greens which range from FS 34079 to 34084. All of the parts
except one have translucent dark green on the inner surfaces. Check out my
page on this airplane under the Research Topics and Articles on the j-aircraft
home page. Good luck with your model!
Cheers!
Greg
Posted By: Jose Sanchez. <jcsber@wanadoo.es>
Date: Sunday, 20 May 2001, at 5:20 p.m.
I want paint my Hayate kit in upper brown color. Can anybody tell me the mix
for this colour in Gunze or Tamiya paints?
Thank you.
Posted By: Harvey Low <hlsml@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 23 May 2001, at 9:47 p.m.
A close FS595b equivalent for Khaki-drab brown is 30118. Try Gunze H72.
Unfortunately, I have yet to find a close match for Tamiya
Posted By: Jega1 <jega1@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 6 June 2001, at 8:22 a.m.
Hi,
found this interesting website. Thought I might share it with the good folks
here:
http://www.french-airforce-sig.org.uk/Personal/Resources_Indx/japanac.htm
There's a good bit of info about the ATAIU - SEA, too. (click under Great
Britain)
http://www.french-airforce-sig.org.uk/Personal/Resources_Indx/japanac.htm
Posted By: Andrew Monroe <monroah@auburn.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 9:40 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Zeroes evaluated in Germany? (Martin)
I’ve never heard of the Germans sending Me-109s and Fw-190 to Japan, did
the Japanese repaint them, are there any pictures?
Thanks
Andrew
Posted By: Martin <mgrant@hei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 9:46 a.m.
Hi!
There's been some pics posted here, and I have a pic or two in a book
somewhere. Basically a very early model 109 (prior to the Emil) was sent to
Japan. Two of them. Japanese Fighter Pilots test flew them and from what I
read, ultimately did not want them as they were not as nimble as Japanese
Machines of the time...Claudes and Nates, (Zero?)
Maybe someone here can re-post a pic or two?
Cheers!
=Martin
Posted By: John Dillon <john.dillon@wachovia.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 12:11 p.m.
Tony
The photos I've seen of these planes show them in standard RLM Luftwaffe
factory painted camouflage with hinomarus instead of the usual crosses. I'm
assuming that the planes were shipped to Japan painted, but without markings
and that the hinomarus were applied in Japan after arrival. Robert Mikesh's
widely available book on Japanese aircraft code names has photos of the 109
and 190.
Best regards,
John
Posted By: Tony <schwalbe@usaf.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 12:35 p.m.
Bf109E-7, Japan, 1941 Five Bf109s were sent to Japan, sans armament, for
evaluation. While in Japan they received the standard
Japanese hinomarus and yellow wing leading edges, as well as white numerals on
the rudder. A red band outlined in white is around
the rear fuselage. Study of the Bf109 in Japan led to the design of the
formidable Ki-61 Hein.
The colors of the plane appear to be the standard RLM 74/75/76 scheme, with
medium mottling on the fuselage sides, probably including RLM 74 and RLM 75 as
well as RLM 02. It is possible that some or all of these planes were later
repainted in
standard IJAAF colors.
This is from this web site.
In Response To: Re: Zeroes evaluated in Germany? (Andrew Monroe)
Andrew,
The link below will take you to a website that lists the RLM colors and
provides at least one example of each. The colors you'll see there are only
approximate, due to technical limitations, but they should help you to
understand what we're talking about on this thread.
Perhaps the best easily-available source of information on RLM colors is the
"Official Luftwaffe Color Chart" published by Eagle Editions, who
list it for US$25 in their on-line catalog on the page at http://www.eagle-editions.com/product2.htm
Charles Metz
A website that
shows the RLM colors
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 4:41 p.m.
Tony -
Yellow leading edges? I did not think that they were used on Japanese
aircraft until mid 1942. All of my reference books are packed for moving but
is there any photographic evidence for this?
TIA
- Grant
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 4:56 p.m.
There are several photographs of the IJAAF Bf109E and there is a photograph
that shows the leading edge color. However, there is another photograph (not
very clear) of the 109 in flight that doesn't seem to have the fuselage
hinomaru (the fuselage hinomaru was standardized only after 1942), so I would
assume these things changed as the standards changed.
As for the evaluation of the Bf109 by the Japanese pilots, some details are
given in Yoji Watanabe's book on the IJAAF evaluation unit based in Fussa. I
stayed over at the office last night and don't have the book with me, but
pilots like Aramaki and Kuroe noted both good and points of the 109 in a quite
fair way. I might get around to giving you some more details when I have
access to the book.
How much influence the 109 had on the Ki61, I do not know, but by the time
it was imported the Ki60 was completed so I don't think it had a lot to do
with the actual design. (The two types have very different design concepts and
construction anyway).
Posted By: Tony <schwalbe@usaf.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001, at 5:11 p.m.
The Ki-61 had the Bf-109 engine: a DB-601A. I don’t know much about
Japanese planes, but I do know about German. The DB-601A was also built in
Germany, Italy and Japan. If you would like I can get more information about
this if you like.
Tony
Posted By: Andrew Monroe <monroah@auburn.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 8 August 2001, at 7:29 a.m.
"The colors of the plane appear to be the standard RLM 74/75/76 scheme,
with medium mottling on the fuselage sides, probably including both RLM 74 and
RLM 75 as well as RLM 02."
Is there a picture that shows this scheme?
Also has anyone modeled with MPC models, I'm tempted to buy an MPC Bf-109E,
take out the guns and model this plane, are MPCs reasonable?
Thanks for the help
Andrew
Posted By: Charles Metz <c-metz@uchicago.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 8 August 2001, at 1:30 p.m.
Andrew,
Photos of a Bf 109 E wearing RLM 74/75/76 camouflage and Japanese markings
have been published in several books -- e.g., 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 A-E,' by
Radinger and Schick (Schiffer [USA], 1999), and (if I recall correctly)
'Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War,' by Francillon (Putnam Aeronautical
series [unnumbered]; Putnam [UK], 1970).
Charles Metz
(Note: there was a bit of confusion about the topic, originally IJA Grey
only, but the resultant thread includes some good information. GB)
Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Monday, 1 October 2001, at 3:28 a.m.
Hi Chris,
You have to realize that the so-called IJN light gray once believed to have
been the standard color of early war IJN single engined aircraft and the
standard undersurface color NEVER EXISTED...
The following FS references were used:
Mitsubishi (and some other manufacturers):
Early war period and on floatplanes undersurfaces up to the end: Gray-Green
14201 (very glossy automotive like).
After the end of 1943 and surely from January 1944 the aspect of the paint
then applied without primer was semi-matte 24201 (as new).
Nakajima early in the war (used on some Aichi Type 99 dive bombers too, most
probably painted at unit level as then Mitsubishi like color seem to have been
used):
Gray Green in 16160 range. It is worth to mention that some Kates painted at
unit level (the first carrier division planes i.e.) for the Hawaiian operation
were in fact using the Mitsubishi paint 14201) and 16160 was used as Nakajima
factory shade. Nakajima built Zeros had also their fabric covered surfaces
painted a lighter shade of somewhat different hue akin to FS 26314
(semi-matte). 16160 like 14201 was glossy and automotive like in aspect.
At an unknown date (the end of 1943 of the beginning of 1944) when primer
was deleted from factory painting process, Nakajima switched to a matte gray
in 36309 range as an undersurface color (when applicable like on all Zeros).
I hope it helps.
François
Posted By: Ryan Toews <ritoews@mb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Monday, 1 October 2001, at 9:18 p.m.
In Response To: Re: IJA light grey (François P. WEILL)
Hello Francois,
I cannot state any certain date for a move by Nakajima to replace the
hairyokoshuko underside color but the A6M5 in the IWM (s/n 196, date of
manufacture March 1944) still retains an underside color with a value close to
4201. It also does not exhibit any evidence of primer.
As well, a Nakajima built A6M5 captured at Saipan and examined by Douglas
Aircraft is described as being painted in two shades of green. Presumably this
refers to a dark green topside and an underside in the familiar gray- green
color.
Ryan
Posted By: Ryan Toews <ritoews@mb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 2 October 2001, at 8:25 a.m.
Hello Francois,
The two A6M5s are both built by Nakajima. This is confirmed by the serial
number of the IWM plane and the curved camouflage demarcation line of the
Saipan Zero.
The latter's paint scheme is described as follows: "A dark green color
is used on the upper surfaces of the fuselage, wings, and tail surfaces, For
purposes of camouflage, a lighter shade of green is used on the lower areas of
the airplane." It also has the underlined tail code of 8-07.
Ryan
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 1 October 2001, at 8:40 a.m.
In Response To: Re: IJA light grey (François P. WEILL)
Merci beaucoup, Francois, but the guys are talking about Imperial Japanese
Army grey, no?
Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Monday, 1 October 2001, at 10:09 a.m.
Oops sorry !!
You're right George
Though I don't know if the IJAAF had a "light gray" either...
As my research goes so far, I found no evidence of the use of a
"true" gray... I've seen mostly gray-greens and some gray blues
(unconfirmed by samples but visible on some color photos)... After then end of
1944, when camouflage was done by the manufacturer, the "light gray"
used is said to have been obtained by mixing a small quantity of the
uppersurface color with white paint (average FS equivalent 30118) which gives
you something in the light beige-gray...
The true light gray doesn't seem to have existed at all even for the Army...
By the way, closely looking to the color pic of Ki 84 in Korea taken just
after the war (see Aero Detail) it is doubtful, despite the use of the
"old" standard of jungle green on the upper surfaces of the nearest
plane any paint was applied to the undersurfaces. I tend to believe that no
undersurface color was applied (unless some field applied in the Chinese
theatre and generally linked to the use of unusual uppersurface finishes) on
aircraft leaving the factory unpainted (like all the single engine fighter
types since Type 1 and up to early production Type 4). Except of course the
fabric-covered surfaces (gray green). If I'm right then the two surviving Ki
84's are not correctly finished by the way ...
Friendly
François
-
Return to General Message Board