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Yokosuka P1Y
"Frances"
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- 10 or 16 20mm cannons ?????
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- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=10 or 16 20mm
cannons ?????>
- Date: Sunday, 16 July 2000, at 11:02 a.m.
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- Hi all,
- in Rene Francillon's "bible" "Japanese
Aircraft of the Pacific War" he mentions that a P1Y
was tested with 10 forward firing 20mm cannon. And
another was projected with 16 20mm cannon. Does anybody
know enything more about this? I mean, where were these
10 or 16 cannons positioned? And how many rounds? Could
they be fired all at once? And finaly what was the
purpose of this version?
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- Thanx
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- Re: 10 or 16 20mm cannons ?????
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- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta
<mailto:kinson-garments@on.aibn.com?subject=Re: 10 or
16 20mm cannons ?????>
- Date: Sunday, 16 July 2000, at 8:52 p.m.
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- In Response To: 10 or 16 20mm cannons ????? (Elephtheriou
George)
- Hi, George.
- According to Maru Mechanic, twenty 20mm guns were mounted
in the fuselage directed downwards. There were two types
of arrangements(the book doesn't go into details), and
approx. 30 of them were built. Their purpose was to
strafe B-29's on the ground.
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- IHTH
- Tennessee
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon>
- Date: Monday, 17 July 2000, at 10:00 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon (David_Aiken)
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- Dear Tennessee,
- thanx for the information from the Maru but it seems it's a
bit in contrast with Francillon. There were 10, 16 or 20 cannons?
Forward firring or diagonal?
- Dear David,
- thank you too for everything. The recoil was my first
thought too. But how about the arangement of the cannons
and their type? Oerlicons?
-
- To all,
- wouldn't it be a really odd to say the least model?
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: David_Aiken
<mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon>
- Date: Monday, 17 July 2000, at 8:41 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: 10 or 16 20mm cannons ????? (Bill Leyh)
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- Aloha All,
- Osamu "Sam" Tayaga's father served in the IJN
test unit which added these cannon to the P1Y. He flew in
the middle seat on the missions to test fire the weapon
system. As Sam is in a major move and out of pocket until
late July/early August, I can only add a little bit which
Sam or his dad told me in the late 1970s. The tests were
conducted over the ocean near Tokyo. Before firing the
weapons all crew tightened their seatbelts. When the
trigger was pulled all of the diagonal cannon fired and
the resultant recoil made Sam's dad's head hit the
canopy, but there was many inches between the canopy and
his head so the plane actually buckled in the middle!
This conversion was intended for a one-way mission
against the B-29 airfields at Guam/Saipan, but the
airfields to be used by the P1Ys were occupied by the
Allies before the mission could be accomplished.
-
- Cheers,
- David Aiken
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: Ted Bradstreet
<mailto:tbstreet@uninets.net?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon>
- Date: Thursday, 20 July 2000, at 7:46 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon (Elephtheriou George)
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- Here's the promised hard data. Source is Japanese Air
Weapons and Tactics, US Strategic Bombing Survey report,
January 1947. I have found this to be a very reliable
source, the data presented was carefully researched.
- There were two versions of multi-gunned P1Ys. The first
had seventeen (17, not 16 or 20) Type 99 guns in the bomb
bay. Twelve of these pointed downward and forward. The
rear five pointed downward and rearward. Thirty Ginga's
were so converted. They were to be staged through Minami
to attack the B-29 bases in the Marianas and to land at
Truk. Minami was lost before the plan could be executed.
It is unlikely that they were painted orange, since they
were conversions and regarded as service aircraft. A
"standard" late-war P1Y paint job is more
likely.
- The second variant had twelve (12, not 10 or 16) Type 99
guns in the bomb bay aimed to fire forward and downward
in a concentrated cone. This variant was intended for
defense against landing craft in the expected invasion of
the Home Islands. No production numbers are given for
this variant and it is unclear if it was developed as far
as the 17-gun version.
- Neither variant saw combat, but the 17-gun P1Y was made
in numbers sufficient to qualify it as a service variant.
I do not think that it would be particularly interesting
to model, since the guns would most likely be fully
concealed with the bay doors closed.
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: Ted Bradstreet
mailto:tbstreet@uninets.net?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon
- Date: Thursday, 20 July 2000, at 3:09 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon (Elephtheriou George)
-
- There were at least TWO different configurations with
different gun counts, but I don't have my sources here. I
will follow up with more data. The twenty-gun version
mounted the guns in rows in the bomb bays. The guns were
Type 99 Oerlikons, since the IJN didn't use any other
twenties, but I'm not sure the exact gun model(s) is/are
given in my best source, let alone ammo capacity. (I
would expect them to be Mark 1 Model 3 guns with
100-round drums if there was enough space.)
- Francillon is a VERY poor source of information on
armament in general -- don't be too concerned that his
information differs from that of better sources.
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon>
- Date: Thursday, 20 July 2000, at 3:53 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
(Ted Bradstreet)
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- Thank you so much Ted. A drum would be the most logical.
But again, does the whole project sound logical to you?
I'll keep in mind your advice about Francillon and wait
anxiously for more information. Thanx again. Do you agree
that it would be an interesting subject for a model?
Makes me wonder about the plane's colors. An
experimental-plane orange perhaps?
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- Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon
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- Posted By: Ted Bradstreet
<mailto:tbstreet@uninets.net?subject=Re: P1Y Test
w/diagonal downward cannon>
- Date: Thursday, 20 July 2000, at 7:56 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Test w/diagonal downward cannon (Elephtheriou George)
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- The idea seems strange to us, but this was late in the
war and the Japanese were both frustrated with their
inability to reach the B-29 in the air and in terror of
invasion. The IJN sought to use the materials it already
had to deal with these problems. Remember too, despite
the tale of the aircraft "flexing" under
recoil, that the Oerlikon gun design is inherently quite
low in recoil and therefore the best choice for such en
masse installations.
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- P1Y Frances
"YO-233"
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- Posted By: Anthony Noel <mailto:anoel@lonestar.utsa.edu?subject=P1Y
Frances 'YO-233'>
Date: Friday, 2 February 2001, at 5:29 p.m.
-
- Greetings;
A published photo of a KUGISHO P1Y Frances with the tail-code
"YO-233", assigned to Yokosuka Kokutai, appears on page 14 of
JAPANESE AIRCRAFT: CODE NAMES AND DESIGNATIONS by Robert C. Mikesh(1993
Schiffer Press), and on page 33 of BOMBS, TORPEDOES AND KAMIKAZES by John
W. Lambert(1997 Specialty Press).
In addition to the tail-code "YO-233", this machine carries a
single bar or stripe across the rudder. The tail and rudder of a second
Frances is visible in the left-hand margin of the photo. This Frances
carries the tail-code "YO-231" and the same single diagonal
stripe across the rudder.
Does this single stripe across the rudder serve to indicate a "SHOTAICHO"
(three plane flight command), or does it have another significance?
It is my understanding that in early 1944 Yokosuka Kokutai began to
organize units for combat operations. Would the single diagonal stripe
across the rudder of these machines serve to identify a particular
operational HIKOTAI?
Any help with this question is sincerely appreciated!
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- Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233"
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- Posted By: Richard Campbell <mailto:muppyt@ihug.co.nz?subject=Re:
P1Y Frances 'YO-233'>
Date: Saturday, 3 February 2001, at 7:05 p.m.
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- In Response To: P1Y Frances
"YO-233" (Anthony Noel)
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- Hi Anthony,
It is my understanding that the diagonal stripe on the fin/rudder
signified an ASV radar equipped aircraft.
- A similar stripe appears on the
fins of ASV equipped Q1W1 'Lorna's and G4M2 'Betty's'
Richard C.
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- Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233"
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- Posted By: Anthony Noel <mailto:anoel@lonestar.utsa.edu?subject=Re:
P1Y Frances 'YO-233'>
Date: Sunday, 4 February 2001, at 1:04 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233" (Richard Campbell)
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- Hello Richard;
Thank you for the information, I appreciate your help!
I'm still not sure about the diagonal stripe across the rudder. For
example, a photo of a Q1W1 LORNA, posted on this board courtesy of Mr.
James Lansdale on 3 January 2001, has a diagonal stripe on the rudder
slanted from upper-left to lower-right. Radar antenna are visible along
the fuselage. On FRANCES "YO-233", the diagonal rudder stripe is
slanted from upper-right to lower-left and radar antenna is NOT in
evidence (at least as far as I can tell!).
- Sincerely, Anthony
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- Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233"
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- Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re:
P1Y Frances 'YO-233'>
Date: Sunday, 4 February 2001, at 5:58 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233" (Anthony Noel)
-
- Anthony -
- I had asked a question like this
before based on a statement in Thorpe and other places which said that the
diagonal stripe was radar related. Jim Lansdale (I think) indicated to me
that the stripe was related to convoy protection and ASW operations. Some
radar equipped a/c such as the Kate (KEB-306) had no diagonal stripe.
Also, some convoy protection birds had the stripe but no radar.
- FWIW
- - Grant
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- Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233"
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- Posted By: Anthony Noel <mailto:anoel@lonestar.utsa.edu?subject=Re:
P1Y Frances 'YO-233'>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2001, at 5:54 p.m.
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- In Response To: Re: P1Y Frances
"YO-233" (Grant Goodale)
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- Grant;
Thank you for the information! I have to admit however, that I'm still
unclear on the status of FRANCES "YO-233".
Your information makes sense in terms of what I know on other aircraft
engaged in ASW and/or Convoy Escort missions (NELL, KATE, LORNA, JAKE
etc.) As far as I can remember, I do not recall any reference or citation
for deployment of P1Y FRANCES on such missions. This is not to say it
never happened, just that I don't know about it!
In reflecting on my original question, it now occurs to me that the
captions for the photograph of FRANCES "Yo-233" do not indicate
when this machine may have been operational. The fact that it was assigned
to YOKOSUKA Kokutai (associated with testing and evaluation), may date
this particular macine from anytime between, say mid-to-late 1943 to 1945.
Therefore, any relevant information on service deployment of the P1Y
FRANCES will be most sincerely appreciated!
- Anthony
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