- Nick Tanks
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Boerema <ryann1k2j@aol.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 30 October 2002, at 12:07 p.m.
-
- Tom
Hall says in Asahi Journal that with the Kai Otsu version of the
Ki-45 plumbing was put in for a pair of wing root drop tanks. Has
anyone ever seen a photo of Ki-45s equipped with drop tanks? Same
tanks as JAAF single engine fighters used, ya think?
-
- Re:
Nick Tanks
-
- Posted
By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
- Date:
Wednesday, 30 October 2002, at 6:18 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Nick Tanks (Ryan Boerema)
-
- Mechanism
of Military Aircraft #6 on the Ki-45/Ki-51 has a technical drawing
of a drop tank, pylon fittings, and the control panel for the
system, on page 29. No photos of an aircraft in use though. I don't
know what page it would be on in the hard cover Maru series. From
the drawing, it does appear to be a "standard" IJA drop
tank.
-
- I
also took a quick look through FAOW #21, and could not find any
photos of a Nick with drop tanks. That said, it would be difficult
to see in a photo because they were designed to hang between the
engine nacelles, and the fuselage. That area is covered in shadow
most of the time....
-
- Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Monday, 28 October 2002, at 6:56 a.m.
-
- on
page 115 of Model Art 329 (Army Fighters, 1989) there is a b/w
illustration by Hasegawa Ichiro san of a very unusual Ki-45. The
photo caption reads:
- "Upper
surface Natural Metal Finish, lower surfaces kuroi (black), Model
Hei belonging to the 5th Sentai, Showa 20 (1945) (can't read the
name of the base).
- In
order to improve wind resistance and climbing characteristics the
paint of the upper surfaces together with the radio mast were
removed from this plane. Nose and rudder were painted red with the
marking and the "letters" in white."
-
- Maki
Koichi san repeats the same in the photo caption of page 52 of the
old blue cover FAOW (No.26, June 1972). NMF upper, Black lower.
-
- Nohara
Shigeru san folows with a color profile of the plane on pages 61, 62
of the old Maru Mechanic, No.11, 1978. As above, upper surfaces are
depicted as NMF, lower as Black.
-
- Nevertheless,
on page 49 of FAOW 21 (1990) Nohara san says that the plane was
painted ANKASHOKU (Dark Brown) overall, then the paint of the upper
surfaces was removed. The reason was that the plane belonged to
Sentaicho Yamashita Yoshiaki and he wanted his plane to be easily
recognizable in the air. But since it wasn't really camouflaged that
way there were complaints from high ranking officers. He also
mentions that as can be seen from the photos at page 48, there were
more planes with similar paint scheme (middle of upper photo, first
plane from the right lower photo) and they belonged to the Sentai
Hombu (H/Q).
-
- What
I see is that the engine nacelles (FAOW 21, p.49, upper photo) are
painted in a much brighter color than the underside of the fuselage.
Could it be that the fuselage underside was painted Black while the
nacelles were left in their Dark Brown?
- In
the bottom photo of the same book, I can barely see some color
difference between the nacelle and the rest of the wing but in the
middle photo the wing root looks a lot darker than the rest of the
wing. Could it be because of the angle of the light in the middle
photo or both the upper and lower surfaces of the wing were left in
their Red Brown scheme?
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Monday, 28 October 2002, at 11:03 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- As
you may remember, I intend to do one of the two Ki-45 models you
sent me in this unique scheme. Besides the references you mention,
there is also a color art profile in MM#44 that shows this a/c as
NMF upper and black lower. Nohara san may claim that the color was
dark brown, but I'm sure that is merely conjecture. While I wish it
was NMF with black underside, because that would look very cool, my
conjecture is that the lower side is most likely dark green with the
top side stripped to NMF.
-
- I
don't think that there were several a/c in this scheme. I believe
that the Nick in the top photo on p 48 (FAOW 21) is the same a/c as
the one pictured on p 49.
-
- I
also have my doubts that the Nick in the lower photo on p 48 is
another Ki-45 in the same scheme. I wonder if it isn't the same Nick
shown on the bottom of p 45 (both have their starboard side engine
cowling off for repair).
-
- I
believe that the dark wing root fairing is a trick of the light, and
that the nacelles in the top photo p 49 are not actually a lighter
color but just reflecting the sun light.
-
- That
the paint was stripped to improve performance is plausible; reduces
both weight and drag. But it makes more sense to me that this may
have been done for recognizability. After all, this is a rather loud
and dramatic scheme to be called camouflage. As for the antenna mast
being removed, the antenna masts have been removed from all the 5 F
Nicks in that group.
-
- Of
course, all of this is just armchair speculation on my part.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 3:24 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- VERY
interesting subject this one!!! Personnally, I think that the
painting instructions in Hasegawa´s Toryu kit CP4 aren´t that far
off - just the upper side of the fuselage is shown as nmf here, the
upper surfaces of the wing remain in the same "Kawasaki
Green" as the bottom of the plane.
- All
illustration of 5. Sentai Toryus of this vintage I´ve seen so far
show them in the "Dark Olive Green" scheme, not the
red-brown we often see on the illustrations of planes operated by
the 27. Sentai in the Philippines for example.
- The
reasoning for this is unknown to me, supposedly this is based on the
recollections of surviving veteras of the unit - the 5. Sentai
apparrently suffered very few losses during their home defence
operations.
- Anyway,
the dark wing root suggests that the upper surface of the wings were
left in the factory scheme as well, the reflective properties of the
"cleaned" upper fuselage would suffice to provide
immediate recognition in the air, I suppose.
- I
don´t really give too much on the tonal values of monochrome photos
anymore, too much depends on the type of film, exposure, lighting
conditions etc. to deduce the actual colour from such photos.
- But
to me it doesn´t seem to make sense to strip the original paint
from the whole airframe and then repaint the bottom in black, let
alone overpaint the previous camouflage colour in another layer of
black that would add even more weight to the airframe.
- Oh,
and please do note the "thin wire" antenna arrangement on
the plane in the upper photo on page 48, remember the Ki-46 in
China, George?!?
- While
I do like the idea of the nose and rudder being red I somehow think
they were simply left in the previous green colour again.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:29 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Joern Leckscheid)
-
- Like
you, I agree that the painting instructions of Hasegawa´s Toryu kit
CP4 aren´t that far off. But I don't agree with their notion that
the top side of the wings were left dark olive green. I draw my
conclusion from the fact that the tops of the horizontal stabilizers
were stripped to NMF like the fuselage. And in the bottom photo on
page 49 (FAOW#21), I can see the demarcation between the NMF and the
darker painted area around the top of the nacelle.
-
- You
wrote:
- "the
dark wing root suggests that the upper surface of the wings were
left in the factory scheme as well."
-
- That
was my original thought too, and this photographic detail does pose
a conundrum. Also, I'm sure this is the detail that tipped the
scales for the folks at Hasegawa to call for the wing tops to be
painted green. But again, I think this is merely a trick of the
light. The photo that shows the wing root as dark is a distant shot
of the port side, while another photo that is a very close shot of
the starboard side wing root appears to show a NMF. Of course it
seems highly unlikely that the port wing would be painted while the
starboard wing was NMF. So I conclude that the dark wing root is a
lighting fluke in that particular shot.
-
- I
agree totally that confirming tonal values from monochrome photos is
too unreliable, if not down right impossible, due to all the factors
involved. I know of b&w photos that make yellow IFF look almost
black, and darkly painted a/c that look like NMF, and Hinomarus on a
particular a/c appear black in one shot while appearing almost white
in the next shot. Extreme apparent variations caused by no more than
the angle of the light from one shot to the other.
-
- You
wrote:
- "to
me it doesn't seem to make sense to strip the original paint from
the whole airframe and then repaint the bottom in black, let alone
overpaint the previous camouflage colour in another layer ofblack
that would add even more weight to the airframe."
-
- I
think you have a valid point here. But then, the Japanese didn't
seem to have a problem with the idea of adding weight to their a/c
because of overpainting. They often overpainted; and often laid it
on very thick and sloppy. But if you were going to strip an entire
a/c and then repaint any of it, painting the bottom would be the
biggest pain in the a**. Personally, I think that just leaving the
bottom in the original dark olive green makes the most sense.
Especially when one considers that stripping the bottom of the a/c
(like painting) would be twice as hard as stripping the top side.
(Have you ever had to strip, paint, or repair a ceiling? Man, that
sucks!)
-
- You
wrote:
- "While
I do like the idea of the nose and rudder being red I somehow think
they were simply left in the previous green colour again."
-
- This
too makes sense to me. But then (and I know that this flies in the
face of what I wrote above about inferring color from these old
b&w's) There does seem to be a tonal difference between the
lower color and the rudder color, while the rudder color appears to
be exactly the same as the Hinomarus in all the photos. Also, the
nose and rudder would be the easiest and the most likely areas to
paint if you were going to add red. And if the point was to be
noticeable... Well, this scheme is that.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:27 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- let
me try to disagree with you in order to search for the truth.
- Maybe
the Dark Brown of Nohara san is a conjecture. Why do you say that
the color is Dark Green? On what do you base your conjecture?
- The
plane in the top photo of page 48 is too small to judge (those who
have examined the actual photo may know better) but I see that its
rudder doesn't appear to be red and that there are planes parked
around it that don't appear in the photos of p.49.
- I
don't know about the plane appearing in the lower photo of p.48.
- Regarding
"the nacelles...reflecting the sun light" in the top photo
of p.49. Please notice the shadow of the propeler on the right
nacelle meaning that the sun must have been somewhere above and to
the front of the plane. But also notice that the right nacelle is
lit while the left nacelle is in shade. This means that the sun is
to the front and right side of the plane. But if the sun was
positioned like that I don't understand why the nacelle looks so
bright while the undersides of the fuselage look so dark.
- Furtheremore,
the color of the nacelles looks closer to the Hinomaru than the
underside of the fuselage. If the nacelles are dark green and look
so bright because of the sun light, then the Hinomaru would look a
lot brighter, wouldn't it.
- Compare
also the color of the right nacelle to the color of the propeler and
spinner.
- I'm
toying with the sun position and the shades here, I know. Your
thoughts?
-
- I
believe too that the plane was stripped to make it more easily
recognizable.
- Yes,
all planes have their radio masts removed. It was a translation
mistake in my part. As I have told you long time ago, there is no
"-s" to indicate the plural form in the Japanese language.
So "hikoki" might mean one or a lot of airplanes.
Therefore my mistake. Sorry.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 5:26 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Joern
responded before I got the chance, and he answered pretty much as I
would have. (I'll respond to Joern's post seperately). It's fun to
speculate, and that's all my following responses are...
-
- You
wrote:
- "Why
do you say that the color is Dark Green? On what do you base your
conjecture?"
-
- The
same thing as Nohara san; personal opinion. Well, that and the fact
that dark olive green appears to have been a far more common color
for Nicks. So I'm going with the odds and my gut instinct.
-
- You
wrote:
- "Regarding
"the nacelles...reflecting the sun light" in the top photo
of p.49. Please notice the shadow of the propeller on the right
nacelle meaning that the sun must have been somewhere above and to
the front of the plane. But also notice that the right nacelle is
lit while the left nacelle is in shade. This means that the sun is
to the front and right side of the plane. But if the sun was
positioned like that I don't understand why the nacelle looks so
bright while the undersides of the fuselage look so dark."
-
- Because
the sun is almost directly above the a/c and the bottom is in
shadow.
-
- You
wrote:
- "the
color of the nacelles looks closer to the Hinomaru than the
underside of the fuselage."
-
- In
which photo? It varies from photo to photo.
-
- You
wrote:
- "If
the nacelles are dark green and look so bright because of the sun
light, then the Hinomaru would look a lot brighter, wouldn't
it."
-
- Not
necessarily. I agree with Joern, that one cannot verify conclusions
about color from monochrome photos for all the reasons he sites. I
have seen too many photos of dark colored a/c that look like light
colored a/c because of a trick of the light on the old films.
-
- Compare
also the color of the right nacelle to the color of the propeller
and spinner.
-
- To
me, this just confirms my original observations.
-
- Re:
Unusual Ki-45 Toryu
-
- Posted
By: Nick Millman
- Date:
Thursday, 31 October 2002, at 6:07 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- There
is a colour photo of an anonymous Nick at Clark Field on page 135 of
Pacific War Eagles.
-
- This
Nick is in good condition and the colour looks more like an olive
drab. It's not really a green per se when one compares the airframe
to the grass surrounding it. I guess some folks would see this
"muddy colour" as a "brownish-green" whilst
others might see it as a "greenish-brown"!
-
- Wear
around the wing roots seems to expose a grey - (hairyokushoku?) -
and then nm. The rear face of the prop blades can be seen as a
definite brown in comparison to the "greyish" olive drab
colour.
-
- Don
and Joern
-
- Posted
By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
- Date:
Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 6:53 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Unusual Ki-45 Toryu (Don Marsh)
-
- of
course it's very difficult, almost impossible to draw conclusions
from B/W photos. We all agree with this. Nevertheless we try to.
- I'm
refering to the photo of FAOW21, p.49, top.
- I
repeat again that the color of the right nacelle (and a bit of the
left) is closer to the Hinomaru, the propeller and spinner and the
nose, making it a much brighter color than the undersides of the
fuselage.
- I
repeat again that if the sun was so bright as to make the nacelle,
painted like the undersides, to look so brighter, then the Hinomaru
would look a lot brighter too....
-
- WAIT!!!!
- I
saw something! (SSSAZZAAANNN!!!) I saw the light! I'm cured! I
touched the screen....eeeerr the fold out page of FAOW21! Nohara has
a color profile of the 5th Sentai painted overall green. It's like
the planes in pages 46,47,48,52,53,81. They are all Green!!! Just
like you said so. I'm finaly able to reach the highest levels of
happiness thanks to you guys!
- But
why does the underside color look THAT dark? Check photo in pages
46,47. The undersides don't look dark at all. The color looks to be
applied in a very uniform way, from the nose to the tail wheel in
p.48, top.
- Well,
I don't know. I'll follow your advices and build a Manchurian Toryu
(?!?!?!?)...someday.
-
- Dark
undersides
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Boerema <ryann1k2j@aol.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 30 October 2002, at 10:40 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Don and Joern (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Re
the argument that it's illogical to paint the underside of a dark
plane black, in Asahi Journal 4,1 p. 20 under an illustration by the
above Don Marsh, Tom Hall says of a dark colored illustrated 53'd
Sentai Ki-45 Tei, "Few of the 53rd's planes were seen in [this]
overall brown or olive scheme. Although called a night camouflage,
it was not satisfactory for the underside of this plane, which was
clearly darker and probably black." and is illustrated as such.
His source is Koku Fan 80, pp 111, 113, 126-8, which I'm afraid I
don't have, but, if accurate would suggest that in at least one
sentai dark a/c received black bottoms. (IMHO the bottom of the a/c
on p.49, FAOW, is indeed black, there may even be a demarcation line
on the bottom of the port cowling.)
- Incidentally,
the Nick illustrated in Asahi Journal also has a white, or cream
fuselage bandage. What were they thinking?
-
- Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Schabow <rschabow@attbi.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 2 October 2002, at 7:20 p.m.
-
- I'm
trying to fill in some gaps on the technical specs of the Type 94
tank gun carried on the Otsu.
-
- I
have that it fires a .460 kg shell at 640 m/s, but I was wondering
if anyone knows how much the complete round weighed and how many
rounds were carried. I imagine that since it was hand loaded, the
crew could take as many or as few as they wanted, but maybe there
was a standard.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Thursday, 3 October 2002, at 1:46 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Ki-45 37mm questions (Ryan Schabow)
-
- I
have 644g at 580 m/s for that weapon, from a 37x133R case. By
comparison, the Ho-203 used a 37x112R cartridge (475g at 570 m/s)
and the Ho-204 used the 37x144 (475g at 710 m/s).
-
- Tony
Williams
- Military
gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
- Military
gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions *PIC*
-
- Posted
By: Ryan Schabow <rschabow@attbi.com>
- Date:
Wednesday, 9 October 2002, at 5:26 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- Thanks
for the responses, everyone.
-
- Was
there any difference in weight between the AP and HE rounds? I found
this pic on a tank site, and they're pretty different size-wise.
-
- Editors
note: Picture at http://home.attbi.com/~rschabow/tp95-4.jpg
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Sunday, 13 October 2002, at 4:05 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions *PIC* (Ryan Schabow)
-
- The
Japanese tended to "mix and match" the different 37mm case
types with a standard range of projectiles.
-
- The
standard HE projectile for the Type 94 tank gun weighed 644g (mv 580
m/s), the normal AP (which had a small HE content) weighed 700g (573
m/s). The AP projectile may be smaller than the HE, but steel weighs
much more than chemicals!
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Friday, 4 October 2002, at 5:38 p.m.
-
- In
Response To: Ki-45 37mm questions (Ryan Schabow)
-
- Don't
know the answer to your question but type 2 fighters captured at
Noemfoor Island in 1944 carried the Ho 203. Most were fitted with an
18 round magazine. One had a 25 round magazine. Allied intel
considered the Ho 203 but little improved over the earlier tank
cannon.
-
- I
would infer that a hand fed cannon would be unlikely to be armed
with more rounds than an automatic cannon given the difficulties
involved in loading. My guess 10-20 rounds.To be very clear, I have
no data that provides direct evidence to support my guess.
-
- Perhaps
someone else on the board can help us out.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Tony Williams <Tony.Williams@quarry.nildram.co.uk>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 8:36 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (richard dunn)
-
- That's
interesting Rick; the sources I have say that the Ho-203 had a
continuous-loop "squirrel cage" magazine looking very
similar to the one used by the US 37mm M4 in the P-39, but it held
only 15 rounds. I haven't heard that it was available in different
sizes.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: Bill Leyh <hawk81@pacbell.net>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 9:49 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- The
original 37mm cannon installation in the P-39C also had a 15 round
magazine.
-
- Re:
Ki-45 37mm questions
-
- Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Sunday, 6 October 2002, at 10:17 a.m.
-
- In
Response To: Re: Ki-45 37mm questions (Tony Williams)
-
- Source:
AAF SWPA Intel. Sum. 230, p.4 & T-1, 2 Aug.44
-
- In
addition to a few paragraphs of text this also includes a full page
diagram of the nose section and cannon with 25mm magazine mounted.
-
