Nakajima B5N "Kate" Pt 2
 
Topics:
Pearl Harbor Kate again
B5N Kate Color
BII-315 
B5N2 Defensive Armament  
B5N2 Armament 
B5N2 PH Scheme  
Pearl Harbor tail number discovery!
Kate camouflage  
Kate Mystery  
Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?  
B5N2 gear indicators  
Kate on deck  
Surrender schemes  
Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II  
Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color  
EII-307 Kate  
Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II  
B5N1s' at Pearl? 
B5N2 Bomb Sights  
Question on B5N2 Kate (New)
 
Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: olivier CHAPON <mailto:ochapon@club-internet.fr?subject=Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 3:06 a.m.
 
Hi,from south of France .
I've just finish a Nichimo Kate coded EII-307 and on the way with BII-307 .
I painted EII-307 gray green under wings and dark green / brown upper wings; but regarding informations given by James F Lansdale, it should be gray green overall with dark green shades. Did I understand well ?
Is it the same with Mottle camouflage for Kate BII-307 and is it confirmed that undersurface folded wings are also camouflaged ?
My last question is about underwing markings.
Photos in Maru Mechanic 14 , FAOW 32, Model Art 378 and 406 didn't show a Kate with underwing numbers.
What sources show these shots ?
EII-307 is planned to be published in the french magazine MMA, so I'm very interested with these informations.
thank you,
olivier
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: James Holloway <mailto:Fholl46282@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
 
In Response To: Pearl Harbor Kate again (olivier CHAPON)
 
Sirs, thanks to all for your responses. in the clearest and largest photos of this plane BII307, there is clearly no IFF panels, highlights on the leading edge of the wing and the slight angle of the outerwing panels give this effect in some photos. If there is a clearer photo showing underwing cammo I would really like to see it, I think if there was cammo they only did it on the center part of the section and this dosen't make sense. I wish this scheme were real, I really like it and wanted to paint it in my unusual schemes collection. It's hard to believe that there can be prints showing all the underwing details and no hint of paint. I will look to see if there is footage of this plane when I return to Japan. I am still looking at Kate AI316 or 18.with the unpainted outer panels. Replica has it as 316 yet I have seen the footage of 316 it is bobbing along with solid wing panels. I am still keeping an open mind towards the underside cammo, but cant see anything that really supports it. 
 
Sincerely, James Holloway
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again *PIC*
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again *PIC*>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 5:18 a.m.
 
In Response To: Pearl Harbor Kate again (olivier CHAPON)
 
Hi Olivier
My opinion is that the art work illustrating the brown and green upper surface mottle for Nakajima B5N2 Kate [BII-307] is in error.
I agree with the James HOLLOWAY analysis that the one photograph known of this aircraft shows the section of the outer wing lower surface to be more in shadow (see photo below) than the inner panel.
Please note the extreme shadow line below the horizontal stabilizer and with this area having the same tonal qualities of the outer wing lower surface.
You will need to include this evidence if you choose to go with the higly speculative art work (which, based on this photo) should include a dark green and brown camouflaged area on the fuselage rear-end below the stabilizer AND the undersurface of the horizontal tail surfaces! Obviously they should match the lower surfaces of the outer wing panel ! (;>)
These shadows, in my opinion, are due to the high sun angle . This has resulted in the inner wing panel (with the individual No. 7) reflecting more light on the lower surface than the outter, folding section.
Also, if the crew had applied the upper surface camouflage to this Kate differently than on the inner lower surface, it was in order to extend the camouflage over the leading edge of the wing and NOT along the ENTIRE lower surface.
It strains the imagination that this aircraft would have been such an anomaly. Surely the Japanese would not have wanted camouflage protection for just one aircraft when it was sitting on the deck of the HIRYU with its wings folded!!!
 
FWIW
Jim lansdale
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: Micah Bly <mailto:micahbly@visi.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 9:35 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
Jim,
I don't know anything about this Kate, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. It looks to me as if there is a light-colored IFF band on the leading edge of the Kate. I take it this photo is from Pearl Harbor? That would be well before IFF bands were in use, right? I don't see a dark-colored underwing. I see an IFF band which makes it look like the outer portion of the wing is painted dark, but that's just in comparison. You can see a firm line along the inner edge of the IFF band (or whatever it is). If you take out that IFF band, you won't notice the different shading from inner to outer wing except as a gradual difference do to shadows.
What is that really an IFF band, and if so, what's it doing there? Was it only fighters that got them in 1942, and bombers got them earlier?
 
Micah Bly
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 9:47 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again (Micah Bly)
 
Hi Micah,
Look carefully at the OTHER leading edge. The inaccurate painting gives the suggestion of IFF. This photo was made enroute to Oahu.
Cheers,
David
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 3:45 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again (David_Aiken)
 
Aloha Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David
You write, "This photo was made enroute to Oahu" regarding the controversial photo of B5N2 Kate [BII-307].
There is NO doubt of a high sun angle if you look at the shadow of the pitot tube on the leading edge of the port wing AND the position of the horizontal stabilizer's shadow angle on the rear fuselage. An artist could readily plot this sun angle.
Thus the photo evidence speakes for itself.
Now, is it possible that this photograph was taken enroute to the attack by the No.2 Koku Sentai a few days later when they were diverted to help with neutralizing Wake Island?
We have no absolute way of dating most of the photos which appeared in propaganda films. The only ones we are certain of were those taken over recognizable Hawaiian features.
For example, many photos allegedley taken on launch for the first wave attack could not have been taken at that time due to darkness or very dim light!
It would be a simple matter to look up sunrise for 7 December 1941 at the latitude and longitude of the launch point.
 
FWIW
Jim Lansdale
 
IFF confusion
 
Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=IFF confusion>
Date: Saturday, 3 March 2001, at 2:54 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again (Micah Bly)
 
Micah and others,
If you look at this pic and some others of Kates of this period, it is obvious that the camo was applied with the wings folded, and thus the darker color comes down farther on one section of the wing. In this case, it extended farther on the outer wing panel, making it look like the inner panel has an IFF stripe. I hope this explanation was helpful.
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: Bob Morris <mailto:rmorris@expression.org?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Sunday, 4 March 2001, at 6:14 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
HELP!
I can not make out what the rather large shape is extending up the fuselage side located between the top of the wing and rear decking. Looks like a "boogie man" or skull & crossbones inside.
Agree that the wing was probably painted when folded causing appearance of IFF stripe. Also think that the increased dihedral of the outer wing panel is cause for much of the difference in shadow value.
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Monday, 5 March 2001, at 7:07 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again (Pete Chalmers)
 
THANK YOU FOR THE PICTURE! IT'S BEAUTIFUL!
Question:
I've seen this in photo after photo of seemingly Pearl Harbor bound Kates....what is that white/bright strip on the upper left portion of the engine cowling. It looks, in some photographs, like a gun trough which is not likely since the B5N2 had no forward firing guns. So...what is it? It doesn't appear to be a reflection. Could it be a marking for aid in torpedo aiming?
Chuck
 
Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again
 
Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again>
Date: Sunday, 4 March 2001, at 6:09 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Kate again (James F. Lansdale)
 
Aloha All,
One must examine the photo a bit more. What does the type bomb tell you? When and only when was that varient bomb used?
Cheers,
David
B5N Kate Color
Posted By: Bill Dedig <wedjr@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 23 July 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
 
I am working on the 1/48 scale B5N Kate from the carrier "KAGA" from Pearl Harbor. Just trying to confirm the color scheme. I am sure IJN Green on the upper surfaces, but am not positive about the under surface. Gray or Natural Metal ??? Also any information regarding the interior of the lowered flaps. Metal, bluish coating,Green ???
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tuesday, 24 July 2001, at 5:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: B5N Kate Color (Bill Dedig)
 
Hi Bill,
Here is a match to the underside color of the B5N from Kaga which crashed at the Navy Hospital at Pearl Harbor 12-7-41. It is from a piece of skin from the underside of the left outer wing. Model Master enamels were used.
40 parts 'Faded Olive Drab' stock # 2051
28 parts 'Armor Sand' FS 30277 # 1704
26 parts white FS 37875 # 1768
1 part black
If you like, you can add 25% white to the total volume of the mix for scale effect. The original paint on the artifact is very glossy so you will want to use a gloss clear coat on your model. The upper side of the plane was densely mottled dark greens which range from FS 34079 to 34084. All of the parts except one have translucent dark green on the inner surfaces. Check out my page on this airplane under the Research Topics and Articles on the j-aircraft home page. Good luck with your model!
 
Cheers!
Greg
 
BII-315
 
Posted By: Mark Mills <mailto:mark@silvercourt.fsnet.co.uk?subject=Oh no, not another PH Kate question....>
Date: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 5:14 p.m.
 
...you're probably thinking! Hiya, as a newbie to IJN a/c, and particularly to their colour schemes, I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have a 1/72 Hasegawa B5N2 which I'd like to use the kit decals for (unless someone can point me in the direction of some alternatives). It's BII-315, from the Hiryu. The kit instructions say to paint (a sparse) green and brown mottle over silver. Scale Aircraft Modelling suggests that the uppers were green with a brown mottle over that. From what I've managed to work out, shouldn't the base colour be hairyokushoku? Did the splotches also cover the outer, underside wing panels as the instructions suggest? I read somewhere that the serials may well have been repeated under the wings. Any truth in this? Anything else I should know about? Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, but It's really getting confusing now!
Thanks and best regards, Mark.
 
Re: BII-315
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: BII-315>
Date: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 6:33 p.m.
 
In Response To: Oh no, not another PH Kate question.... (Mark Mills)
 
Mark -
I may be feeding myself to the lions for this so here goes.
Great debate over the NMF/hairyokushoku base coat. I think the current wisdom is in favour of hairyokushoku.
The upper surface paint should not be continued under the wing. To the best of my knowledge, that only happened with BII-307 and there has been heated debate over that one. A good clear photo of BII-307 en route to Pearl is not definitive either way. The information is based on Japanese eye witness accounts (I think).
The underwing numbers (15 in your case) must be present for Pearl but maybe not too long afterward.
The whole issue of the mottling is another can of worms and the best answer that I can think of is YES :) if it feels right to you - do it.
 
HTH
- Grant
 
Re: BII-315
Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: BII-315>
Date: Wednesday, 18 July 2001, at 2:44 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: BII-315 (Andrew Monroe)
 
Hi Andrew,
The underwing numbers are cited in "Shinjuwan no 101 Ki" by H. Yoshimura, with M. Asano and me, in REPLICA magazine, Jan 1990, page 85. I noted these numbers from crash photos and select aerial shots. These are the final digit or digits of the tail code. I have posted this at Tony's site.
Incidently, BII-315 did not fly above Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941.
 
Cheers,
David
 
Tony's site
 
Re: BII-315
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: BII-315>
Date: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 7:00 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: BII-315 (Mark Mills)
 
Mark -
Having built two 1/72 Kates (including BII-307) for the j-aircraft Nats project, I had to print my own decals. I used Microsoft Word 97 and the underwing numbers were in Arial 72 point. Tail codes for the Kates can be printed in Arial 16 point or Times New Roman 16 point, depending on the presence of serifs. Different stuff for Zeros, vals and Jakes.
 
HTH
- Grant
 
B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Keith Allen <mailto:keacla1@aol.com?subject=B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 1:42 p.m.
 
This is my first visit here, so forgive me if this question has been covered. Most sources, including Francillon's "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War," say that all Kates had a measly defensive armament of a single 7.7mm aft, with no forward-firing guns. But a few sources say that armament was increased on the B5N2. I am told that Francillon's earlier book, "Japanese Navy Bombers of WWII" (Doubleday series) says that the later B5N2s had a ventral-mounted 7.7. Bill Gunston's "Encyclopedia of the World's Combat Aircraft," for example, claims that the B5N2 had no fewer than four 7.7s, two in the forward fuselage and two in the rear. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?
Thank you.
Keith Allen
 
Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Ron Grasso <mailto:rjgrasso1@fedex.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 6:51 a.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 Defensive Armament (Keith Allen)
 
Armament:
Two forward firing 7.7mm machine guns, and one or two 7.7mm trainable Type 89 machine gun in rear cockpit.
External variable bomb load, or one torpedo, to a maximum of 800 kg (1,764 lbs).
At one time I owed a replica B5N2 from the movie
TORA, TORA,TORA. call sign EII-301
 
Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 7:00 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament (Ron Grasso)
 
Ron -
I am a little confused here. To the best of my knowledge, the B5N had no forward firing guns. However, I could be wrong.
What are your references for the forward firing 7.7mm machine guns? This seems to come up from time to time and there may be some truth to it.
 
- Grant
 
Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 10:53 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament (Ron Grasso)
 
Hi Grant and Ron,
All of my references, from Francillon to Maru Mechanic, show the rear seat man's Type 92 Lewis gun as the sole gun on all models of the Type 97 from the begining to the end of it's service. HTH.
 
Cheers!
Greg
 
Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 8:23 a.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 Defensive Armament (Keith Allen)
 
Keith -
I checked my copy of Francillon's "Japanese Navy Bombers of WWII" last night and the reference to the ventral mounting was to an early B6N1 (Jill) and that it was dropped.
 
HTH
- Grant
 
Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament
 
Posted By: Dr Mike Hawkins <mailto:mikeh@samart.co.th?subject=Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament>
Date: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 6:02 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Defensive Armament (Grant Goodale)
 
Regarding the ventral defensive armament on the B6N series aircraft, I understand that the normal upper position gun had to be unshipped by the gunner and transferred to the open lower hatch mounting. In the middle of a dogfight with Hellcats that could have been difficult. I used to have difficulty lifting my sick-bag under 4 "g" let alone a machine gun.
Secondly, opening the lower hatch would have opetrated as a very effective air-brake, just like the one we used to have on the Hawker Hunter. Again, this would not be recommended with an Hellcat coming up your exhaust pipe !
As far as I know, the B5N had no such hatch.
 
All the best,
NMike Hawkins (Dr.)
 
B5N2 Armament
 
Posted By: Ron Brann <mailto:ronb180@home.com?subject=B5N2 Armament>
Date: Friday, 17 August 2001, at 1:09 p.m.
 
To Kate fanciers:
Hopefully you are able to help me. I am researching data on the Nakajima B5N2 "Kate" of WW II fame. Regarding its armament, there seem to be two very different schools of thought. One, that Iíll refer to as the "Gunston group" gives the Kate two forward-firing and one or two rear-firing 7.7 mm machine guns. Their accuracy seems questionable to me. The other, Iím calling the "Francillon group" list a single rear-firing 7.7 mm gun. That seems to be more valid.
I am looking for an authoritative "tie-breaker." Do you have any thoughts on the subject which you will share.
 
Thanks,
Ron Brann
 
Re: B5N2 Armament
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Armament>
Date: Friday, 17 August 2001, at 5:06 p.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 Armament (Ron Brann)
 
Hi Ron,
All of my references from Japan show only the single Type 92 Lewis gun operated by the radioman as the Kate's armament.
Greg
 
Re: B5N2 Armament
 
Posted By: jackson <mailto:fincherI@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Armament>
Date: Friday, 17 August 2001, at 3:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 Armament (Ron Brann)
 
The only written text I have on the subject, Axis Aircraft of World War II lists only one rear mounted 7.7mm weapon.
Hope it helps
jackson
 
Re: B5N2 Armament
 
Posted By: Jim Long <mailto:james.i.long@worldnet.att.net?subject=Re: B5N2 Armament>
Date: Sunday, 19 August 2001, at 5:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Armament (jackson)
 
Ron,
The two forward firing guns were shown in the Technical Air Intelligence Center (TAIC) data sheets for the B5N2. This was always inaccurate, but never changed, even after the Americans captured a B5N2 at Saipan and found that the plane had no forward firing machine guns.
The TAIC data sheets cause the trouble. Some writers/researchers rely on them - too much, in this case.
The plane had only the rear machine gun as defensive armament.
 
Regards,
Jim Long
 
B5N2 PH Scheme
 
Posted By: Grant N. Flanders <mailto:flandersfarm@mbusa.net?subject=B5N2 PH Scheme>
Date: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 10:44 a.m.
 
Am looking at the circa 1965 AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE on the B5N by Dr. M. F. Hawkins. Has a color rendition of Cdr.Fuchida's machine by Mr. Ronald Percy. NM overall, red and yellow tail stripes. No black cowling.
 
Question is, any validity to this scheme?
 
Sincerely,
Grant
 
Re: B5N2 PH Scheme
 
Posted By: Dr Mike Hawkins <mailto:mikeh@samart.co.th?subject=Re: B5N2 PH Scheme>
Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2001, at 10:40 p.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 PH Scheme (Grant N. Flanders)
 
To :Grant N.Flanders etc.
From: Dr Mike Hawkins
1 August 2001
Fuchida's Kate at Pearl Harbour.
While preparing material for the Profile I wrote to Capt. Fuchida, through his book publishers, enclosing an outline sketch of Kate. He kindly replied, having marked the drawing as shown in the Profile and written the comment on the bottom "Some aircraft were camouflaged green, brown or yellow, but mine was silver ".
I have no doubt it was, originally, but at the time the Kates were hastily given a coat of camouflage paint onboard the carriers, (then) Cdr. Fuchida had plenty of other things to think about !
I now accept that it had a green top coat but still feel that it was most unlikely that the underside was repainted in the circumstances.
 
Hope this sets the record straight.
Mike Hawkins (Dr.)
 
Re: B5N2 PH Scheme
 
Posted By: Mark Shannon <mailto:Shingend@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: B5N2 PH Scheme>
Date: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 11:02 a.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 PH Scheme (Grant N. Flanders)
 
This scheme is based on a statement by Cdr. Fuchida in an interview where he said, to effect, that others had their aircraft painted green and gray, but his was silver.
Cdr. Fuchida's aircraft was photographed during the Indian Ocean sweep, where it shows that the upper areas had been painted in a dark green at one point, which was flaking off badly. The Kates in the Pearl Harbor striking force were hurriedly painted in a camouflage uppers, generally over grey-green overall service paint, while at sea, and it is believed that Fuchida's was painted over the natural metal at this juncture.
If you look in the Model Gallery and at the 'FAQ's from the Message Boards', you will see the current thinking for PH. Essentially, a dark olivey green (34077-34079-34086) over natural metal undersides, red fuselage band (for Akagi) bordered in white, red vertical and horizontal tail surfaces with the red meeting at the tail cone area from about half way back on the fin chord. Markings were three horizontal bands, the lower two not extending the full width, on the vertical surfaces, one above, two beneath the tail code 'AI-301', unbordered Hinomaru in all normal positions, and the number '1' under the wing just inboard of the fold point, reading top-to-front. The nose and cowling were painted in the typical grayish-black with a curved 'scallop' edge from approximately the trailing edge of the oil cooler under the nose to the windshield back edge (separating point of the fixed and sliding portion of the pilot's canopy)
 
Re: B5N2 PH Scheme
 
Posted By: Grant N. Flanders <mailto:flandersfarm@mbusa.net?subject=Re: B5N2 PH Scheme>
Date: Thursday, 2 August 2001, at 5:34 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 PH Scheme (Mark Shannon)
 
Thanks fellows, for the response. I'm honored.
The stimulus for the question was first Ron Percy's color work in the Profile. It's very interesting to find out upon what information that work was based on.
Second, I was looking at page 19 of FAOTW on the B5N, the June, 1976 printing. The top picture is of a B5N1 in natural metal over-all, I can't decern a marking on it. This finish includes the cowling. This raised the possibility in my mind that early a/c made it into service without the black front. A possibility is all.
I don't read the Japanese language, and go on to guess that the cited photo is either of a (or the) prototype airframe during testing, or a picture that has been heavily retouched. Your opinions?
To close, another interesting aspect of this photo is the heavy discoloration of the skinning on the wing undersurfaces. Quite a patchwork.
Has anyone ever done any translation efforts on the FAOTW book?
 
Sincerely,
Grant
 
Pearl Harbor tail number discovery!
 
Posted By: Ron W. <mailto:epfan12000@yahoo.com?subject=Pearl Harbor tail number discovery!>
Date: Sunday, 13 May 2001, at 7:17 a.m.
 
Hello all,
Today I stumbled across something that surprised me while visiting the home of PH Type 97 "Kate" navigator Harou Yoshino. Several people have asked him over the years for his PH tail number, but of course after several decades since the war, he forgot. Well, today we discovered it. Written on the back of his PH crew photo was his tail number - AII-305
He crewed this airplane with pilot Ichiji Nakagawa and gunner/radioman Mitsuo Kawasaki as a 1st Wave torpedo plane from the "Kaga". Neat stuff.
 
Regards,
Ron W.
 
Kate camouflage
 
Posted By: Paul Mahoney <mailto:feroc@bellatlantic.net?subject=Kate camouflage>
Date: Sunday, 3 June 2001, at 9:26 a.m.
 
I am building Hasegawa's new 1/48 kit, and wish to use the kit markings for the green and brown blotch/mottled scheme flown off the Soryu during the Pearl Harbor attack.
Am curious if anyone can help me on the 'blotch' camo that was applied to some Kates - illustrations in Thorpe's book, as well as others are unclear to me.
Was this applied as a solid green topsides, followed by a brown mottle, or were the green and brown both mottled over the natural metal base in a 'spottier' type of coverage?
Any and all help appreciated!
thanks in advance
Paul
 
Re: Kate camouflage
 
Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <mailto:Tennkats@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Kate camouflage>
Date: Thursday, 7 June 2001, at 7:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: Kate camouflage (Paul Mahoney)
 
Hi, Paul.
The camouflage on Soryu's Kate at Pearl Harbor is rather unclear and controversial mainly because there doesn't seem to be any clear photo of a Kate belonging to Soryu at Pearl(come to think of it, there may be a photo of a tail of Soryu's Kate at Pearl, but I happened to have that book loaned to a friend). There is a good photo of Hiryu's Kate at Pearl, so assuming Soryu's Kates appeared identical to those of Hiryu's, we can go by the photo of Hiryu's Kate.
Just in case you don't have this photo, Hiryu's Kate appears as if the upper surface is painted in blotches of a dark colour. It is difficult to tell if it's blotches of dark green and brown, or just blotches of green. If you believe the eye witnesses, Hiryu and Soryu's Kates had the upper surfaces painted in blotches of green, with only a tinge of brown showing through. So, if I'm doing a model of Hiryu or Soryu's Kate, I'd paint it overall IJN grey, and then airbrush blotches of brown, and finally airbrush blotches of green. I'll over spray the brown and the grey with green so not much of either colour will show through. Judging from the eyewitness' comment, the upper surface was predominantly blotches of green with not much brown nor IJN grey showing through, but was not solid green.
I'm sure there are other theories and beliefs. I'd suggest you check out other theories, study the photo, and draw your own conclusion.
 
IHTH
Tennessee
 
Re: Kate camouflage
 
Posted By: Paul Mahoney <mailto:feroc@bellatlantic.net?subject=Re: Kate camouflage>
Date: Friday, 8 June 2001, at 3:58 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kate camouflage (Tennessee Katsuta)
 
Tennessee ---
thanks very much! I know there is some conjecture when it comes to painting these a/c, but with my limited knowledge of the subject I figured I could enlist some help here. That was a very detailed explanation and I will base my paint scheme on your information.
One question - you mention overall gray, yet some of my research notes undersides were natural metal? Until recently I was always under the impression these a/c were painted gray, but now I'm reading things to the contrary. Any suggestions?
many thanks again,
Paul
 
Re: Kate camouflage
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Kate camouflage>
Date: Friday, 8 June 2001, at 6:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kate camouflage (Paul Mahoney)
 
Hello Paul,
On page 134 of Model Art 573 'Shinjuwan Kogekitai' (Pearl Harbor Attack Force) is a photo of a Soryu Kate in over-all gray-green paint in October, 1941. Check out the photo of a large artifact from a Kaga Kate. Click on 'Research Articles' and then 'Pearl Harbor Kate' on the j-aircraft home page. It shows an example of heavy green over gray-green splotching.
 
Cheers!
Greg
 
Re: Kate camouflage
 
Posted By: Larry Martinez <mailto:saginaw1@swbell.net?subject=Re: Kate camouflage>
Date: Thursday, 7 June 2001, at 10:26 a.m.
 
In Response To: Kate camouflage (Paul Mahoney)
 
Hello Paul. I'm sorry that I have no information pertaining to your good question, but I too would like to see an answer as well. I do have a book called "The Way It Was: Pearl Harbor-The Original Photographs" and I have found two pics of Kates, but the film shows them as very dark fuselages, so it's pretty near impossible to see if there is any applied camouflage on them. I got a personal impression that the Kates were unique in that they were either finished at that time in IJN Green or camouflaged. I will admit though, I did see the movie "Midway" several times, so my opinions would be 'tainted'. :-) I also remember buying a 1/700 scale Akagi CV kit when I was a teenager and the instructions visually showed a Kate in a 'splotched' camouflage scheme of a dark color on a light color. Well, I hope you get a speedy and ACCURATE answer. Please let me know what you find out. Thank you. --Larry Martinez
 
Kate Mystery
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Kate Mystery>
Date: Friday, 3 August 2001, at 5:26 p.m.
 
Hello Gents,
Reported on page 213 of Jon Lundstrom's 'The First Team'(which I am reading for the fifth time) is an interesting incident. Lt.(jg) William Woollen of VF 42 riddled a Type 97 during the Japanese dusk attack on May 7, 1942 in the Coral Sea. This was one of three Shokaku planes of which two were shot down immediately and a third badly damaged. Quoting from the text: "In the latter, bullets had killed the pilot, forcing the observer in the middle seat to take control. He piloted the Nakajima close to MO striking force but had to ditch."
The only currently known photo of the middle cockpit of a Kate shows the deck in front of the observer's seat. It is mainly taken up with the bomb release console and what appear to be map boxes. No rudder pedal bar or fitting for a control column can be seen. This is a late production Type 97 possibly built by Aichi or the 11th Naval Air Arsenal. Can anyone confirm that B5N2s had flight controls in the middle cockpit? Perhaps forward of the bomb console on a level with the pilot's cockpit deck? (The stick would have to be pretty short to fit under the instrument panel.)
I am hoping there will be some info from Japanese text sources since I can find nothing in English or in illustrations.
 
Cheers!
Greg
 
Re: Kate Mystery
 
Posted By: James Holloway <mailto:bobwimple@aol.com?subject=Re: Kate Mystery>
Date: Thursday, 9 August 2001, at 4:48 p.m.
 
In Response To: Kate Mystery (Greg Springer)
 
Sir, I thought you might find this interesting, I had gotten it out of an old (80's) Koku-Fan, author Akimoto Minoru. According to this account, Lt. Hagiwara of the Shokaku participated in the dusk sortie. He lost his pilot, WO Yonekura, to fighters. Now, according tothe Author Hagiwara crawled from his seat and climbed onto the dead pilot to take over controlof the plane. He managed to make it back to the fleet, but they would not turnon lights for him, they had warning that a counterattack was on it's way. His fellow crewmates and his usual pilot, NCO1G Ishikawa hadto listen as his plane was heard circling the area until it grew faint and he was finally lost. Sincerely, JamesHolloway
 
Re: Kate Mystery
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Kate Mystery>
Date: Thursday, 9 August 2001, at 5:18 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Kate Mystery (James Holloway)
 
Hello James,
Thanks very much! That settles the question. It must have been a tight fit as the Kate canopy has a very low profile and he also had to get around the RDF loop. It's too bad Hagiwara's quick thinking and prompt action availed him nothing in the end.
 
Cheers!
Greg
 
Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?
 
Posted By: Emmanuel <mailto:aecastro1@aol.com?subject=Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?>
Date: Tuesday, 5 June 2001, at 2:53 p.m.
 
Hi,
I haven't bought the Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE.
I am planning to buy this model kit but
I want to know more about the decals before I buy this kit.
Can someone tell me information about the Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals?
Does the decal have the Hinomaru with white edge outline?
I appreciate and Thank You Very Much.
 
Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?
 
Posted By: Brett Johnson <mailto:JetBrett1@aol.com?subject=Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?>
Date: Wednesday, 6 June 2001, at 9:07 p.m.
 
In Response To: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ? (Emmanuel)
 
Looking at Nichimo 1/48 Kate Decals / Instruction sheet -
Kit includes markings for 4 aircraft; 3 are from Pearl Harbor attack (however, none of these three A/C carried torpedos that day) and 1 radar plane.
(Color callouts per instructions and open to debate)...
 
1) EII-308 Zuikaku torpedo bomber (labeled correctly on box but incorrectly identified as from carrier Zuiho on instruction sheet), 2 white bands, dark green and brown mottled upper surfaces, light grey underside. (My research reveals Zuikaku launched no torpedo planes in the PH attack, but the box art clearly shows this aircraft skimming past battleship row/USS West Virginia and releasing a torpedo... go figure).
2) AI-301 Akagi horizontal bomber (Fuchida's A/C), 1 red band, dark green mottled over silver topside, silver underside. (Instructions do not mention red tail surfaces as on Hasegawa Kate box art).
3) EI-311 Shokaku horizontal bomber, 1 white band, overall light grey with dark green mottling on upper wings and fuselage spine.
4) KEB306 radar plane from 931 Air Squadron, no armament. Oddly enough the only color callouts are for the silver spinner and black cowl; no mention of the overall upper and lower colors so the modeler needs to research this one (but seriously, has anyone ever built this option?)
 
Happy Building!!
 
Re: KEB 306
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: KEB 306>
Date: Thursday, 7 June 2001, at 4:55 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ? (Brett Johnson)
 
Brett -
I have built the Nichimo KEB 306 and I used Thorpe as my references. In conjunction with Thorpe and the one kit drawing I was able to sort out where the holes should be drilled for the antennae. Regarding the spinner colour, I believe that the photos in Thorpe look like red brown primer, not natural metal. That is the way that I did mine.
 
FWIW
- Grant
P.S. My kit was one of the first release batch from the 1970's so the instructions may have changed on newer releases.
 
Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?
 
Posted By: Jim Szabo <mailto:Nickel107@aol.com?subject=Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?>
Date: Wednesday, 6 June 2001, at 5:06 a.m.
 
In Response To: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ? (Emmanuel)
 
The decals provide both hinumaru's, with and without white edge. Without having it in front of me as I write this, I believe they provide markings for a late war Kate with radar antenna, as well as markings for two Pearl Harbor aircraft - two white band and one red band aircraft. Based on topics discussed here, the paint schemes are suspect as far as the kit recommends. IMO, get the Hasegawa kit, it's light years better than Nichimo. You also get the numbers for all Pearl Harbor tail codes
 
Re: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ?
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi
Date: Tuesday, 5 June 2001, at 6:36 p.m.
 
In Response To: Nichimo 1/48 B5N2 KATE decals ? (Emmanuel)
 
I don't have the kit with me at this moment, but I think it included decals for the late war all green scheme with the outlined Hinomaru. The decals aren't too superb, though.
 
I really would advise you to buy the new Hasegawa offering even with the much higher price tag, but if Nichimo is your choice, then be it.

B5N2 gear indicators

 

Posted By: Jim Obermeyer <mailto:slickobe@aol.com?subject=B5N2 gear indicators>
Date: Sunday, 16 September 2001, at 3:04 p.m.

 

In all my reference material on the B5N2 Kate I cannot find any sign of these aircraft having the gear indicators protruding through the top of the wing as on the Zeke aircraft. Does anyone have a reference or knowlege of these?

TIA, Jim O.

 

Re: B5N2 gear indicators

 

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: B5N2 gear indicators>
Date: Tuesday, 18 September 2001, at 5:26 a.m.

 

In Response To: B5N2 gear indicators (Jim Obermeyer)

 

Hi Jim,

The Kate does have gear position indicators. They are different in design than those on the Zero. The indicator is a tab which is a 90 degree section of a disc. When it protrudes from the wing, the forward edge is vertical with the upper edge arcing down towards the rear into the top surface of the wing. An excellent pair of drawings of the mechanism are found in Maru Mechanic. A photo on page 182 of Model Art 553 shows the indicator deployed on a B5N1 that is in the landing pattern for a carrier. It is darker than the aluminum skin around it and my guess is that it is painted red with three light-colored marks at the bottom edge which may be luminescent 'fully extended' indicators. The slots for the indicators are engraved on the wings of the Hasegawa 1/48 scale kit. I hope this helps.

Greg

 

Re: B5N2 gear indicators

 

Posted By: Mark Shannon <mailto:Shingend@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: B5N2 gear indicators>
Date: Wednesday, 19 September 2001, at 7:40 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: B5N2 gear indicators (Jim Obermeyer)

 

There are some techincal drawings for the Kate at:

http://www.marksindex.com/aviation/aviation.html

The page is also accessible from the Links page of this site under 'Marks Home Page', and no, I am not the Mark involved.

The page has some interesting translation reprints from Asahi Journal on the Oscar, Hien, Val and Kate.

 

.Mark

 

Kate on deck

 

Posted By: Cesare <mailto:cesaspe@tin.it?subject=Kate on deck>
Date: Sunday, 14 October 2001, at 1:14 p.m.

 

I have seen many beautiful photos of Vals ranged on deck just prior to a strike, some with Zeros escorts. But I have never found in my books ( or in the web ) anything similar for the Kates, except for the AI301 - Fuchida's own, and always alone. There is a photo of a carrier with a full deck of B5N2 ?

 

 TIA

Cesare

 

Re: Kate on deck

 

Posted By: Mike Wenger <mailto:wengerm@mindspring.com?subject=Re: Kate on deck>
Date: Wednesday, 17 October 2001, at 3:26 p.m.

 

In Response To: Kate on deck (Cesare)

 

Actually, there is at least one famous view which comes to mind, which is actually a composite of two motion picture frames taken on board Shokaku on the morning of 7 December 41. The "photo" shows the entire Kanko-tai (27 aircraft) under the command of Lieut. Ichihara Tatsuo. I will try to get this scanned tonight.

There are actually a substantial number of rather unique views which are available in motion picture form, but they are extremely expensive to "lift". I am working with the National Archives now to get a negative made of some 35mm motion picture film to obtain the best prints (I will print directly off of the motion picture negative).

What won't we do in our quest for images!

Regards,

Mike Wenger

 

Re: Kate on deck

 

Posted By: Cesare
Date: Thursday, 18 October 2001, at 2:28 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Kate on deck (Mike Wenger)

 

Thank for your search: I am interested in understand if the kanko were ranged in two lines or three with wings interlocked, as seem the kanbaku were organized in my photos ( and SDB and TBD also). This makes probably some difference in the time of starting for a strike.

TIA
Cesare

 

Re: Kate on deck

 

Posted By: Mike Wenger <mailto:wengerm@mindspring.com?subject=Re: Kate on deck>
Date: Thursday, 18 October 2001, at 8:37 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Kate on deck (Cesare)

 

They were arranged in three lines.

 

Re: Kate on deck

 

Posted By: Cesare
Date: Tuesday, 23 October 2001, at 3:00 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Kate on deck (Mike Wenger)

 

Were they arranged with wings folded until the last? or the wing were unfolded just after leaving the elevator?

TIA
Cesare

 

Re: Kate on deck

 

Posted by: Mike Wegner

Date: Tuesday, 23 October 2001, at 4:54 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Kate on deck (Cesare)

 

Regarding the B5N2s, I believe that their wings were unfolded subsequent to their being spotted on the deck, if the motion picture sequence is an indication.

Surrender schemes

 

Posted By: Jeff <mailto:chipdog@fuse.net?subject=Surrender schemes>
Date: Wednesday, 29 August 2001, at 3:39 p.m.

 

I was looking at the Aircraft in Profile of the Kate and saw a picture of it in the white surrender scheme. Wanting to do the Hasegawa Kate in this way, I thought of a couple of questions. Would all armament have been removed? Was the white painted all over or just the uppers and sides? Was it more af a whitewash (ala German winter schemes) or more of a solid color? Were the green crosses carefullt masked or just rough painted?

 

Re: Surrender schemes

 

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Surrender schemes>
Date: Wednesday, 29 August 2001, at 5:32 p.m.

 

In Response To: Surrender schemes (Jeff)

 

Jeff -

It would seem logical that the Allies would insist on removal of armament. As to the other questions, I would answer them all Yes :) Go to the Australian War Memorial and do some searches and you will find quite a variety of schemes, including a Ki-57 with just crosses over the hinomaru!

Excellent site - the Aussies and New Zealanders have every right to be proud of it.

- Grant

Australian War Memorial Photos

Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II

 

Posted By: Greg Tarris <mailto:gregtarris@htomail.com?subject=Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II>
Date: Friday, 26 October 2001, at 2:57 p.m.

 

I am thinking of doing this aircraft. I will have to scratch build a torpedo unless someone knows where I can buy one in the next few days.

My question is AI-3II is shown to be green over aluminum on the fuselage according to my reference fotos in a Aircraft In Detail issue that specialized in Pearl Harbor. However it does not show if this camouflage continued onto the wings, that is, is there camouflage smears of green with nmf showing through as on the fuselage depicted? Any ideas?

Thanks

 

Re: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II

 

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II>
Date: Monday, 29 October 2001, at 9:59 a.m.

 

In Response To: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II (Greg Tarris)

 

Aloha Greg,Murata's Kate was over all Gray, (Conecete) top and bottom. Dark Olive Green @34079 was applied to the top. However, patches of grey were left. This paint scheme was on the fusalage and the wings. The tail had THREE YELLOW stripes on it.

 

Re: Murata and Matsumura KATEs

 

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Murata and Matsumura KATEs>
Date: Thursday, 1 November 2001, at 3:50 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: New Hasegawa Kate with Torpedo (Chuck Nimsk)

 

Aloha All,

Shigeharu Murata's KATE AI-311 had three yellow command stripes [like Fuchida's AI-301].

Hirata [not Heita as often spelled] Matsumura had two blue command stripes outlined in white on his BII-320.

I spent a lot of time with Jinichi Goto [Murata's #2 Shotai leader who flew AI-308 with one yellow command stripe] and with Matsumura.

Cheers,
David Aiken

 

Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color

 

Posted By: Greg Tarris <mailto:gregtarris@htomail.com?subject=Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color>
Date: Friday, 2 November 2001, at 7:36 a.m.

 

I am doing a 1/48 scale Kate, Pearl Harbor. The Hasegawa instructions say that the enclosed area by the canopies of the dorsal fuselage should nakajima. Is this the same color as the cockpit interior?What color shpould I use?

 

Re: Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color

 

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color>
Date: Friday, 2 November 2001, at 9:49 a.m.

 

In Response To: Kate Pearl Harbor Enclosed Canopy Color (Greg Tarris)

 

Greg -

The decking under the canopy should probably be the same as the cockpit interior. For a good match for Nakajima interior green, try the PollyScale Weyerhauser Green from their Railroad Acrylics line.

 

HTH

- Grant

 

EII-307 Kate

 

Posted By: Michael kendix <mailto:mkendix@hotmail.com?subject=EII-307 Kate>
Date: Saturday, 27 October 2001, at 9:22 p.m.

 

I have the "Mania" 1/72nd scale kit of the B5N2 Kate. The kit only has a torpedo - no other ordnance. The decals and colour insert profile provide for 4 schemes, only 1 of which has a torpedo: namely EII-307. I understand this is from Pearl Harbor raid - Carrier Zui-Kaku (sp?) - is that correct?

Also, the profile shows green over grey with a brown blotchy tailfin and some brown blotches on the forward fuselage. Is that correct?

The small photo I have shows a blotchy tailfin and the "EII-307" is set on a solid (probably green) background. Is tha correct?

Does this scheme have a "7" inboard of the hinomaru on the wing's underside?

Who is/was the pilot?

I wanted to do Fuchida's AI-307 but the kit has no bomb and only holes for the torpedo, so no dice.

Has anyone read "God's Samauri" and care to comment? I picked up the bool second hand and wondered if it was worth reading.

 

Many thanks,

Michael Kendix

 

Re: EII-307 Kate

 

Posted By: Steve Simms <mailto:zero0022@hotmail.com?subject=Re: EII-307 Kate>
Date: Thursday, 1 November 2001, at 11:17 a.m.

 

In Response To: EII-307 Kate (Michael kendix)

 

On page 134 of "The Way It Was, Pearl Harbor", there
is a photo of EII-307 departing Pearl Harbor. The tail code appears to be painted on a horozontal stripe that is just slightly wider than the codes them selves.The rest of the fin and rudder are kind of slpotchy looking. Maybe the tail was brown, with the codes painted on a red stripe? The Kate was from the Zuikaku and the bomb crutches are empty. The book states the in the second wave only 2 250kg bombs or 1 250kg bomb and 6 60kg bombs were carried by the Kates from the Zuikaku and Shokaku.(No Torpedos in the second wave).The crew is listed as Sea1c. Masato Hatanaka (pilot) PO2c. Hideichi Kamino (observer), and Sea1c. Kingoro Oizumi (radioman).Hope that helps.............

 

Re: EII-307 Kate

 

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: EII-307 Kate>
Date: Monday, 29 October 2001, at 9:50 a.m.

 

In Response To: EII-307 Kate (Michael kendix)

 

Aloha Michael, None of the second wave "Kates" had the 800 kg bombs on them. EII-307 was loaded with two 250 kg bombs. The Fujimi 1/72nd scale "Val" kit #35501 has two 250 kg bombs that would work for the ordance. In 1/48, Finemolds makes a 250kg bomb kit. For Fuchida's plane, I recommend the new Revell/Monogram Pearl Harbor kit. the Kate comes with a resin 800kg bomb. The markings are for Fuchida's airplane. Contact me at my e-mail adress if you are interested in a 1/72nd scale resin bomb.

 

Re: EII-307 Kate

 

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: EII-307 Kate>
Date: Sunday, 28 October 2001, at 6:44 a.m.

 

In Response To: EII-307 Kate (Michael kendix)

 

Michael -

A few answers to some of your questions, according to Model Art #573).

EII-307 was was from Zuikaku in the second bombardment wave. As such, it carried an 800kg bomb and not a torpedo.

The upper surfaces were green and brown. The tail fin appears to have red paint applied over a solid brown base, the brown showing around the tail codes.

There was a 7 on the wing undersurface, consistant will all Kates at Pearl.

The crew were:

Pilot: NAP 1/C Tadayoshi Kawada
Observer: Ensign Kazumasa Kaneda
Gunner: NAP 4/C Eiji Shinoda

 

HTH

- Grant

 

Re: EII-307 Kate

 

Posted By: Horacio Higuchi <mailto:hhiguchi@interconect.com.br?subject=Re: EII-307 Kate>
Date: Sunday, 28 October 2001, at 12:54 a.m.

 

In Response To: EII-307 Kate (Michael kendix)

 

Hi:

Kate EII-307 was indeed aboard the Zuikaku. There is a photo of this particular aircraft on page 55 of "Camouflage and Markings of the Imperial Japanese Navy Bombers in WWII" (ModelArt No. 406). The caption says it is seen flying over Hickam Field on Dec. 8 (obviously Japanese time), 1941, and that because it "doubled as a commanding plane, its fin was painted red". Just underneath there is a line drawing profile of the same plane, showing a dark green and brown camouflage with two white stripes just ahead of the tail, and tail codes that were supposed to be white, but which were apparently painted red (over what appears to be an irregular brown horizontal stripe) -- the same color as the fin. It isn't explained in the text, but the drawing seems to indicate the upper surfaces of the horizontal stabilizers were also red. All this strikes me as very odd, since in the photograph the hinomarus and the tail codes do indeed appear to be of the same tonal value, but the fin color looks faded and different. There seems to be some color continuity from the fin to the stabilizers.

Also, bomb racks -- not torpedo attachment points -- are clearly seen in the photo. As for the underside number inboard of the hinomaru, I could find no pictures of such a marking, though a torpedo-carrying Kate from the carrier Kaga (coded AII-356) seems to have had the numbers "56" applied to the underside on both wings, inboard of the hinomarus, facing the leading edge.

I could find no reference to the pilot's identity.

 

HTH.
Horacio

 

Re: red tails

 

Posted By: Cesare <mailto:cesaspe@tin.it?subject=Re: red tails>
Date: Sunday, 28 October 2001, at 6:15 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: EII-307 Kate (Horacio Higuchi)

 

I just wonder how mwny planes had red tail: for sure I know only two, that is Fuchida's and Egusa's, and the last one only at PH while Fuchida retained red tails during Ceylon campaign. Was Fuchida's plane with a red tail at Midway? Did other planes had the red tail? (Tomonaga's at Midway had a distinctive tail, recognised by friend and foe, but seem not to have a red tail).

BTW, was Egusa's Kanbaku the only one to have green surfaces at PH?

Thanks In Advance
Cesare

 

Re: red tails

 

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: red tails>
Date: Monday, 29 October 2001, at 11:09 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: red tails (Cesare)

 

Cesare, acording to the latest info Egusa's mount was NOT green with a red tail at Pearl. The fusalage was a red- orange color with a gray tail. Nakagawa's "Val" was Green on top with the green ending in a pointed pattern on the end of the fusalage. Refur to a recent Model Art release for more info. Kates from the Kaga had Brown tails.Unknown to this point if any other aircraft had Red tails. Hope this helps, Merv

 

Re: EII-307 & AI-315/316 Kate Questions

 

Posted By: Mike Wenger <mailto:wengerm@mindspring.com?subject=Re: EII-307 & AI-315/316 Kate Questions>
Date: Saturday, 3 November 2001, at 4:47 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: EII-307 & AI-315/316 Kate Questions *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

 

Jim,

Regarding red tails and brown tails, I am NOT the person to ask. See Aiken's post further down (up?).

There is a mention made in the Roberts Commission of an aircraft with a red tail at high altitude during the second wave, which seemed to be surveying the damage over the harbor. I had always thought that aircraft was either Fuchida or Egusa. Whatever...

However, the Akagi Type 97 is "AI-316". I will try to post the scan I have of my original as "evidence". Of course (as a disclaimer), I just got a new pair of bi-focals!! Ha ha!

 

Wenger

 

Re: EII-307 & AI-316 Kate Questions

 

Posted By: David Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: EII-307 & AI-316 Kate Questions>
Date: Saturday, 3 November 2001, at 2:48 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: EII-307 & AI-315/316 Kate Questions *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

 

Aloha All,
The Kate EII-307 was transferred from Kaga which had brown tails. This plane's tail code was then over painted with green and the EII-307 code applied. There are other samples of tail codes which are incompletely applied that found their way into combat that 7 Dec 1941. AII-352 only had the "352" on the port tail; AI-154 had serifs on both sides that showed incomplete application...

As to AI-316, the movie film frames must be taken together in total...I see "16".

 

Cheers,
David Aiken

 

Re: EII-307 & AI-316 Kate Questions

 

Posted By: Mike Wenger <mailto:wengerm@mindspring.com?subject=Re: EII-307 & AI-316 Kate Questions>
Date: Saturday, 3 November 2001, at 4:38 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: EII-307 & AI-316 Kate Questions (David Aiken)

 

I weigh in affirmatively with Mr. Aiken.

The idea of a "command" aircraft flies in the face of several bits of information.

1. There are no command stripes on the vertical stab.

2. This photo and several others are part of a series which have LONG been credited to W.O. Harunari Yaegashi (pilot), who was Lt.Cdr. Shimazaki's #1 wingman (behind and to the left). I have always interpreted the EII-307 photo as being Shimazaki's #2 wingman (behind and to the right- PO2c Hideichi Kamino as plane commander) being the subject of the photo. Someone in Yaegashi's aircraft (presumably the observer) likely looked out to starboard and snapped the picture. Hence, this could NOT have been a command aircraft.

Sometimes we tend to: a)look at a photo, b)see an anomoly, and, c)assume that the anomoly is the result of enobling design rather than unhappy accident. This photo, in my opinion, is a product of the latter.

None of us knows everything, but I think the subject of this photo was the product of a sloppy/hurried paint job.

Mike Wenger
Raleigh, NC
Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II
 
Posted By: Greg Tarris <mailto:gregtarris@htomail.com?subject=Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II>
Date: Friday, 26 October 2001, at 2:57 p.m.
 
I am thinking of doing this aircraft. I will have to scratch build a torpedo unless someone knows where I can buy one in the next few days.
My question is AI-3II is shown to be green over aluminum on the fuselage according to my reference fotos in a Aircraft In Detail issue that specialized in Pearl Harbor. However it does not show if this camouflage continued onto the wings, that is, is there camouflage smears of green with nmf showing through as on the fuselage depicted? Any ideas?
 
Thanks
 
Re: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II
 
Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II>
Date: Monday, 29 October 2001, at 9:59 a.m.
 
In Response To: Kate Pearl Harbor-Lt Cdr.Murata AI-3II (Greg Tarris)
 
Aloha Greg,Murata's Kate was over all Gray, (Conecete) top and bottom. Dark Olive Green @34079 was applied to the top. However, patches of grey were left. This paint scheme was on the fusalage and the wings. The tail had THREE YELLOW stripes on it.
 
Re: Murata and Matsumura KATEs
 
Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Murata and Matsumura KATEs>
Date: Thursday, 1 November 2001, at 3:50 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: New Hasegawa Kate with Torpedo (Chuck Nimsk)
 
Aloha All,
Shigeharu Murata's KATE AI-311 had three yellow command stripes [like Fuchida's AI-301].
Hirata [not Heita as often spelled] Matsumura had two blue command stripes outlined in white on his BII-320.
I spent a lot of time with Jinichi Goto [Murata's #2 Shotai leader who flew AI-308 with one yellow command stripe] and with Matsumura.
Cheers,
David Aiken
B5N1s' at Pearl?
 
Posted By: Andrew Johnson <mailto:ajo@ceh.ac.uk?subject=B5N1s' at Pearl?>
Date: Wednesday, 10 July 2002, at 5:58 a.m.
 
Was just thumbing through the Chester Wilmott (I think) book on the Pearl Harbour attack and noticed a picture of a B5N1 taking off past a sand-bagged carrier island. The way the sand-bags were hanging did remind me of the photos of sand bags being put around the bridge of Akagi prior to the attack.
Is it possible any of the Carriers at Pearl Harbour launched B5N1s'? I assumed their days were over by December 1941?
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Andrew
 
Re: B5N1s' at Pearl?
 
Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1s' at Pearl?>
Date: Wednesday, 10 July 2002, at 6:43 a.m.
 
In Response To: B5N1s' at Pearl? (Andrew Johnson)
There were no B5N1's at Pearl. I asked this question about a year ago and that was the answer. The picture you are refering to is from a movie that the Japanese made about the attack in 1942 and the B5N1 was from a training unit.
Chuck Nimsk
 
Re: B5N1s' at Pearl?
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: B5N1s' at Pearl?>
Date: Wednesday, 10 July 2002, at 9:27 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N1s' at Pearl? (Chuck Nimsk)
 
Chuck -
I believe that the movie was entitled "I Bombed Pearl Harbor". The interesting thing is that they made a full size mock up of the carrier flight deck to film the scenes. I also think that they used that for training of carrier pilots for a while.
FWIW
- Grant
 
Correction
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Correction>
Date: Wednesday, 10 July 2002, at 1:04 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N1s' at Pearl? (Grant Goodale)
 
I believe that I have been mistaken about this film. David Aiken has kindly supplied with more information as follows:
"The film which he refers was Hawai Marei Oki Kaisen [Hawaii and Malaysia Sea Battle] released on 7 Dec 1942. Filming aboard the Akagi in May 1942 was with two B5N1 training units.
Taiheiyo no Arashi [Storm Across the Pacific] was released in 1960 and, retitled I Bombed Pearl Harbor and dubbed in English for the USA tour in Dec 1961. This used an aircraft carrier mockup of Hiryu with full size good mockups of aircraft...and that deck was used for the similar deck sequences in Tora! Tora! Tora!"
Thanks, David
My apologies for the wrong information.
- Grant
 
Motion Picture Frame in NARS
 
Posted By: Mike Wenger <mailto:wengerm@mindspring.com?subject=Motion Picture Frame in NARS>
Date: Friday, 12 July 2002, at 6:24 a.m.
 
In Response To: Correction (Grant Goodale)
There is at least one photo in the Still Picture Branch of the National Archives (though there are likely others) lifted from this motion picture footage.
This particular frame shows a B5N1 passing Akagi's Island. The negative # is 80-G-182245.
Footage from this film has been used on many occasions. The first time I viewed it was in Walter Cronkite's CBS "You Are There" series.
I posted this only because this particular documentary (along with other factors) served as a turning point in my life. It is what, as a youngster, fired my imagination and propelled me into naval history.
 
Mike Wenger
B5N2 Bomb Sights
 
Posted By: Frank Baldwin <mailto:baldwin@clara.co.uk?subject=B5N2 Bomb Sights>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 6:54 a.m.
 
Does anyone have any information - in partiucular piuctures on the level bombing and torpedo bombing sights used in the B5N2 Type 97 Its for usein a flight simulation called Warbirds. The player development corps of warbirds is trying to build a B5N2 with the right bomb sight and sight picture. Any pictures, diagrams of sight pictures and markings and controls will be very welcome.
 
Frank Baldwin
Researcher Warbirds PDC
http://www.pdc.warbirdsiii.com/
 
Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights
 
Posted By: Rich Lane <mailto:carrlane@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights>
Date: Friday, 23 August 2002, at 12:25 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights (mike aiello)
 
Mike,
The Norden has been the subject of several books and an excellent article in the June 1996 issue of "Air & Space Magazine". The Norden was certainly a marvel of technology and most certainly accurate. The Air & Space article does, however, indicate the legend "drop a bomb into a pickle barrel from 20,000 feet" may have been a slightly exaggerated reputation.
I believe the Type 90 was not of much interest to US intelligence. I have found very little archive information on the Type 90. US intelligence documented the sight in photos and several translated manuals but they probably viewed the Type 90 as a sophisticated "drift sight".
As to accuracy of the Type 90 in the Pearl Harbor attack... I believe the horizontal bombing unit "Kates" equipped with Type 90s did not score very many hits...the most known being the 800Kg bomb hit on the Arizona's forward magazine.
 
Rich
 
Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights
 
Posted By: Rich Lane <mailto:carrlane@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 11:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: B5N2 Bomb Sights (Frank Baldwin)
 
Frank,
I posted this link on the "General Aircraft" page for the Betty. The Type 90 and Type 97 torpedo sight (used in Kates) are depicted in the "Navy Gunsight" portion of this website. It looks to me like the Type 90 photo came from the "Japanese Aircraft Interiors" book and the Type 97 photo may have came from the FAOW book on the Kate.
 
Rich
http://www.sam.hi-ho.ne.jp/ki-44/index.htm
 
Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights
 
Posted By: Rich Lane <mailto:carrlane@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 12:42 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: B5N2 Bomb Sights (Frank Baldwin)
 
Frank,
I don't have a scanned image, but there is a drawing of a Type 90 reticle in Maru Mechanic #3 (Myrt/Jake) (page 134). The Jake used the Type 90 as well.
 
Rich
Question on B5N2 Kate
 
Posted By: Bill Vargas <mailto:BILL2BCPA@aol.com?subject=Question on B5N2 Kate>
Date: Thursday, 13 June 2002, at 6:50 p.m.
 
Hello,
I hope someone can help me with this question. Many of you guys seem to have access to obscure and hard to find information.
1) Regarding the B5N2 Kate, most written and all internet sources I've found state the B5N2 Kate carried just 1 rear firing 7.7 mm machine gun. However, I've also seen 4 different written sources:
* U.S. War Department Handbook on Japanese Military Forces
* Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II
* Illustrated Encyclopedia of Combat Aircraft of World War II
* Illustrated Encyclopedia of 20th Century Weapons & Warfare
that claim the B5N2 carried 2 fixed 7.7 mm guns and 1-2 rear-firing guns. The last source was very specific. It cites that starting in Dec. 1939, the Model 23 B5N2 carried this augmented armament. It also cites that this model used a Nakajima Sakae 21 engine (1,115 hp). Does anyone else know about this model? If it did exist, does anyone know any additional information, especially how many were made, were they used in front line units, when they went into service and if they served aboard carriers?
Thank you in advance,
Bill Vargas
 
Re: Question on B5N2 Kate
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Question on B5N2 Kate>
Date: Thursday, 13 June 2002, at 8:21 p.m.
 
In Response To: Question on B5N2 Kate (Bill Vargas)
 
Bill -
No hard evidence has ever been found about a B5N with forward firing guns. Some intelligence reports were issued to that effect but they are generally considered to be erroneous. There were a few examples of two flexible rearward firing guns.
Francillon states that the B5N2 used the Sakae 11 (1,000 hp). Mike Goodwin is the expert on engines. Perhaps he could provide additional information.
HTH
- Grant
 
Re: Question on B5N2 Kate
 
Posted By: Mike Goodwin <mailto:Mike.Goodwin@bigfoot.com?subject=Re: Question on B5N2 Kate>
Date: Saturday, 15 June 2002, at 3:47 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Question on B5N2 Kate (Grant Goodale)
 
Hi Grant,
I never heard of, or saw, any evidence that a B5N ever had a Sakae 21 installed. If there had, it would have been easy to recognise, as this engine was longer and heavier than the Sakae 11, and required more intake air and more cooling. It would also have been a Model 13 (not 23) unless there were also some unrelated airframe changes. And it would probably have been redesignated B5N3.
Furthermore, the Sakae 21 was not available for service till well into 1941, and was in short supply throughout 1942. So I think the report quoted is probably suspect.
Cheers,
Mike
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