Nakajima B5N

Nakajima B5N "Kate"

Topics:
B5N1/2 KATE Differences
How about Kate KEB-306???
Kate BII-310
I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate *PIC*
Kate colors
Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors *PIC*
Kate PH underwing markings
Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A
Fuchida's Kate
New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?
Arizona Kate
Kate Squadron Bombing Method
PH Kate Bomb arrangement
Hiryu Kates at Midway
Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?
Why Camo Kates Anyway
Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942? (New)
B5N Kate interior (New)
B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's? (New)
Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match (New)

B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: Foster Rash <mailto:Nikkijean@aol.com?subject=B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Wednesday, 17 January 2001, at 8:19 p.m.
Can anyone explain the external (visual) differences between the B5N1 and B5N2 models of the KATE? I have a set of plans for a flying model of the B5N1 but want to build it as a B5N2. Are they dimensionally the same? Thanks.

Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: Garth <mailto:goconnell@dingoblue.net.au?subject=Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Wednesday, 17 January 2001, at 9:28 p.m.

In Response To: B5N1/2 KATE Differences (Foster Rash)

To put it in as few words as possible :)
The B5N1 has an enlarged engine cowling - the B5N2 has a smaller one.
Technical details for those who want to know why :)
B5N1 engine was the smaller and less powerful than the engine in the B5N2, the 1,115 hp Nakajima Sakae 21 radial. The B5N1 was replaced in frontline service by the N2 version in 1942.
HTH
Garth
Australian War Memorial

Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: Micah Bly <mailto:micahbly@visi.com?subject=Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Wednesday, 17 January 2001, at 9:26 p.m.

In Response To: B5N1/2 KATE Differences (Foster Rash)

AFAIK, the B5n1 and B5N2 were identical externally with the exception of the nose area. The B5N2's Sakae engine was smaller in radius than the B5N1's Hikari engine, and the cowling was shrunk to make the plane more streamlined. Also, the B5N2 has a spinner, while the B5N1 just had the bare propellor hub. The difference is quite noticeable, actually. The B5N2 cowling is straight, whereas the B5N1 cowling appears to bulge out towards the nose.
HTH,
Micah Bly

Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: François P. WEILL <mailto:frpawe@wanadoo.fr?subject=Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Thursday, 18 January 2001, at 2:43 a.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences (Micah Bly)

Micah,
You're about right excepts the explanation for the wider Hikari engine : it was a single row radial, the Sakae was a double row one which permitted the diameter reduction without diminishing the engine displacement. As for the propeller spinner I have to disagree. Only latre B5N2's did carry it and I still don't know if that feature was a retrofit or a factory applied modification.
Another noticeable diffezrence was thje radio antenna system. At least when the planes left the factory.
The Model 1 (B5N1) had a trailing cable which was stored int the cockpit on cable wheel. Most B5N2's (but not all as the early ones seem to have kept the old system) had a classical antenna mast instead. Moreover, many B5N1 still on active duty received the new radio systme and a classical antenna.
By the way, I don't know if any B5N1 even when used at coastal patrol duty late in the war did receive radar and consequently the Yagi antennas, but a number of B5N2 did.
Hope it helps
François

Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: Micah Bly <mailto:micahbly@visi.com?subject=Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Thursday, 18 January 2001, at 9:02 a.m.

In Response To: (François P. WEILL)

Well, I don't quite see how my explanation of the reduced engine radius was wrong from your explanation. The radius was smaller, the cowling in turn was shrunk in diameter. ?

I'm certainly no expert on the B5N, that is for sure. I simply regurgitated Francillon. So if he was wrong about the spinners... so am I :) I did look around, and although I have some line art of the spinnerless B5N2, I don't have any photos of it. Anybody know when they made the switch to spinners?
Micah Bly

Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences

Posted By: Foster Rash <mailto:Nikkijean@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences> Date: Wednesday, 17 January 2001, at 11:13 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1/2 KATE Differences (Micah Bly)

Micah, Thanks for the quick reply, I really appreciate it. I'm looking at several photos of Kates and see the distinctive larger diameter on leading edge of cowl on one, presumably a B5N1. The rest of the photos I have are indentified as either Pearl Harbor or Midway, planes have the more conventionally shaped cowls (B5N2?) but no spinners. Any comment? Foster

How about Kate KEB-306???

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=How about Kate KEB-306???> Date: Friday, 29 September 2000, at 11:35 p.m.

Hehe...thought I'd throw everyone off here! It's not a PH Kate, but a late war Kate with radar. There is at least one photo of it, and it is a decal option in the Nichimo kit, which I just got today (I've never been so amazed in my life). Anyways, does anyone know anything about this aircraft? I can't understand the Japanese instructions at all, so I don't know Nichimo's slant on it, either. They think that the cowl is painted differently and that it has a spinner on the propeller.

Re: How about Kate KEB-306???

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: How about Kate KEB-306???> Date: Saturday, 30 September 2000, at 6:31 a.m.

In Response To: How about Kate KEB-306??? (Phil)

Phil
This aircraft was captured on Saipan in 1944 and subsequently shipped to the US and test flown at NAS Anacostia.
Kate [KEB-306] was attached to the General (Combined) Escort Force or Rengo Goei Butai (GEB) with the 931 kaigun kokutai. No. 931 ku was one of three kokutai attached to the GEB as follows:
801/901 ku coded KEA (Mavis/Emily) 931 ku coded KEB (Kate) 453 ku coded KEC (Jake)
IHTH
Jim Lansdale

Re: How about Kate KEB-306???

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Re: How about Kate KEB-306???> Date: Saturday, 30 September 2000, at 10:47 a.m.

In Response To: Re: How about Kate KEB-306??? (James F. Lansdale)

Thanks, Jim! What exactly was its mission? I know it has radar, so was it looking for subs? Also, did they really have that spinner?

Re: How about Kate KEB-306???

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: How about Kate KEB-306???> Date: Saturday, 30 September 2000, at 2:16 p.m.

In Response To: Re: How about Kate KEB-306??? (Phil)

Phil
You asked;
1. "What exactly was its mission?"
No.931 ku was used for anti-submarine patrol and convoy escort.
2. "Also, did they really have that spinner?"
Yes. For PICs as captured see THORPE, "JNAF Cam/Mark:WW II," pages 90, 93, and 123.
Jim Lansdale

Last couple questions....

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Last couple questions....> Date: Saturday, 30 September 2000, at 11:39 p.m.

In Response To: Re: How about Kate KEB-306??? (James F. Lansdale)

What was the typical ASW armament? And, what about the camo pattern? I assume it's dark green over light gray, with the green extending over the leading edges of the wings. I can also see from the one pic I have that it has the yellow ID markings on the wings. My question actually pertains to the cowl. Was the black applied the same as early war, or was it different by 1944? The instructions show only the cowl (as per A6M) being black.

Re: Last couple questions....

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Last couple questions....> Date: Sunday, 1 October 2000, at 6:13 a.m.

In Response To: Last couple questions.... (Phil)

Phil
You ask;
1. "What was the typical ASW armament?"
A. I do not know. The weight of the radar equipment and the fuel needs for longer range may have precluded any offensive armament.
I believe that the Japanese ASW tactics utilized these aircraft to scout ahead and radio information on any contacts. The Kate may have carried small bombs for these missions, but I doubt it. I think their job was merely scouting and target acquisition. The kill was probably left for the DDs or other aircraft.
2."the camo pattern? I assume it's dark green over light gray, with the green extending over the leading edges of the wings. I can also see from the one pic I have that it has the yellow ID markings on the wings. My question actually pertains to the cowl. Was the black applied the same as early war, or was it different by 1944?"
A. I do not see any evidence of a black cowling. In two photos it is covered with a tarp. The photos do not clearly show evidence of the yellow L/E IFF stripes either, but do clearly show the Yagi antennae arrangement.
Are you able to borrow the Thorpe book from someone or have scans made of the photos referenced?
Jim Lansdale

Kate BII-310

Posted By: MIKE CONLEY <mailto:nakajima42@aol.com?subject=kate BII-310> Date: Friday, 13 October 2000, at 8:39 a.m.

WHAT HAPPENED TO KATE BII-310?

Re: kate BII-310

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: kate BII-310> Date: Friday, 13 October 2000, at 9:54 a.m.

In Response To: kate BII-310 (MIKE CONLEY)

Hi Mike, The story of BII-310 is the story of Lt JG Toshio Hashimoto. He was the bombardier/navigator on that plane at Pearl Harbor, Indian Ocean action, and at Midway. His story was fictionalized in the Japanese movie I BOMBED PEARL HARBOR. Cheers, David Aiken

Re: kate BII-310

Posted By: Randy Date: Saturday, 14 October 2000, at 10:54 a.m.

In Response To: Re: kate BII-310 (David_Aiken)

Hi David:
Are we going to start this business about BI-310 all over again?
I am thoroughly confused by this:
John Lundstrom ("The First Team", pg. 393) lists Tomonaga as leading the kanko attack against Yorktown while piloting the damaged BI-310.
Earlier, on this board I believe, there was debate as to the proper markings of Tomonaga's Kate: was it 'BI-310' or 'BII-310'?
I have contacted both John Lundstrom and Mark Horan and so far they have not been able to clarify this point. Does anyone have a copy of Kokufan, January 1976? This has an article entitled, "The Tomonaga Torpedo Attack Unit Departs." It may be of help here.
Regarding the fuselage bands on Hiryu's Kates it is true that Soryu was the Second Division's flagship until April 22, 1942 when Yamaguchi shifted his flag from Soryu to Hiryu. This occurred at Hashira-jima immediately following the return from the Indian Ocean Operation (A. Tully).
IIRC, this seems to be at odds with earlier board commentary which postulated banding changes on Second Division aircraft which had been temporarily based at Kendari -- specifically, there would have been no need to alter the bands prior to Yamaguchi moving to Hiryu...how would anyone know?
So now Hashimoto is placed in "***-310," which I believe is incorrect in any event. However, what is the truth of the matter?
Sincerely, Randy

Re: kate BII-310

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: kate BII-310> Date: Saturday, 14 October 2000, at 1:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: kate BII-310 (Randy)

Randy
It is the conjecture of several IJNAF historians (including myself) that the tail codes and colored fuselage bands applied to the aircraft of the CAGs remained constant even if the CO changed flagships. COs changed flagships as a matter of expediency. It would have made little sense to completely repaint all the aircraft codes and bands on all the aircraft on board each ship simply because the CO changed the location of his flag. And, it would have made less sense to have the entire air groups change respective ships!
It is probably true that the carriers of Nos. 1 and 2 koku sentai retained the same tail codes and respective fuselage bands from PH (December 1941) to Midway (June 1942), even if the HIRYU became the flagship for the No.2 koku sentai at Midway.
CVL RYUJO, No.4 koku sentai, did not give up its air unit, coded [D1-...] until the HIYO was added to the No.4 koku sentai. JUNYO aircraft were coded [D11-...] in June of 1942.
Jim Lansdale

Re: kate BII-310

Posted By: Randy Date: Saturday, 14 October 2000, at 4:48 p.m.

In Response To: Re: kate BII-310 (James F. Lansdale)

Hi Jim:
I have tried your email many, many times, and received nothing but error messages...you no longer exist...and so on. BTW, I have read many of your posts and have a great deal of repect for your research and abilities. I have received further reference to you and your work directly from Ed Maloney, so whatever is good enough for Ed is definitely good enough for me.
I will concede the issue of the 4th Division for now...and I think you are right in any event.
But this issue of the Second Division keeps arising, hence my post earlier. It's time to put it to rest.
Your first paragraph in your post is confusing, not least because the term CAG never existed at that time...just as 'trapping' did not exist, I believe, until much later. I would love to see the first, contemporary, reference to 'trapping' in order to establish it's origin -- but that is another story.
Anyway, I am very confused by this question. As I first posted this very subject has come up before and it has never been satisfied, to my knowledge. At Pearl the single blue band applied to Soryu aircraft -- without question -- but now we are presented with the certain information (or is it so certain?) that Tomonaga (or Hashimoto) launched from Hiryu flying BI-310. So what is the dope?
Let's get down to cases: Yamaguchi changed flag only once that I know of, from Soryu to Hiryu in April 1942. Who was the 'CAG' that you write of? Is it really so senseless to expect Soryu to add a stripe and an "I" and Hiryu to remove same around late April? In the earlier topic regarding this issue, and correct me if I am wrong, didn't several folks interpret photographs as to depict repainted or fresh paint on the fuselage stripes of Soryu (and possibly Hiryu)?
I agree that the airgroups likely changed little between vessels but I do not concede that repainting would never have occurred...it would not have been that big of a job. And, since you brought up the issue...just how often did a flag change within a carrier division...not too often I think...in fact, I think it was rather unusual during this stage of the war.
So what am I to make of this?
Sincerely,
Randy

Re: kate BII-310

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: kate BII-310> Date: Saturday, 14 October 2000, at 5:33 p.m.

In Response To: Re: kate BII-310 (Randy)

Hi Randy
First, try this e-mail (JLansdale@pinecrest.edu). If you have trouble with this e-mail address your ISP is pretty unreliable.
Thank you for the kind words. When I used the term "CAG" I was referring to a generic "carrier air group" (kokubokan hikokitai) not a commander.
I have no idea how many times any carrier division commander switched flags, my studies center more on markings and camouflage, not higher command structure or IJN customs. I do not know with absolute certainty that HIRYU did not switch markings, it just seems that to do so would be a lot of work. There are dozens of examples when aircraft carried their old markings to new units when they where reassigned and the Japanese where masters of expediency during combat conditions.
You write, "didn't several folks interpret photographs as to depict repainted or fresh paint on the fuselage stripes of Soryu (and possibly Hiryu)." I do not know this to be a fact. I have never seen any photographs of SORYU or HIRYU aircraft after March 1942. Just because the photos are captioned SORYU or HIRYU is not sufficient to prove the point that the aircraft were from these carriers. SORYU was the first ship in the No.2 koku sentai and HIRYU was the second ship. What real difference did it make to Admiral YAMAGUCHI if the planes on his flagship were coded [B1-...] or [B11-..]. The koku sentai organization was such that the No.1 hiko daitai berthed on one ship (along with their deck crews) and the No.2 hiko daitai on the other.
Who has a reference to any photos of SORYU or HIRYU aircraft after March 1942?
As I also said, none of what I am postulating is certain, I am only throwing out some thoughts.
Re: "we are presented with the certain information (or is it so certain?) that Tomonaga (or Hashimoto) launched from Hiryu flying BI-310." I leave matters such as this to the real experts on the OB for PH or Midway (David AIKEN and Mark HORAN).
Jim Lansdale

I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate *PIC*> Date: Friday, 17 November 2000, at 4:38 a.m.

Can anyone identify the unit and/or T.O. of the Nakajima B5N2 Kate [CS-308]?

TIA
Jim Lansdale

Re: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate

Posted By: Tom Hall <mailto:Hall023038@aol.com?subject=Re: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate> Date: Friday, 17 November 2000, at 1:57 p.m.

In Response To: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Dear Jim,
Your photo must be clearer than what is on my screen; I can't make out the "S".
Assuming the tail says "CS", there is a little fuzziness about the unit name. In MWA 15 (the Maru Mech. on Tabby), Minoru Akimoto identified this as the marking of the Dai 12 Rengou Koukuutai Shireibu Fuzoku Yusoukitai. In other words, a cargo plane unit. He said the code came into use in 1944.
In KF for 12/95, Mr. Akimoto seems to have abandoned this idea. He called the same marking that of the Shina Houmen Kantai Shireibu Fuzoku Yusoukitai. This also was an air transport unit. He says this mark was used in 1944. This unit he places in China. He also ties the marking to "C", which he says was used earlier in the same unit.
I have not done any more research and it may be that the two units are essentially the same.
Since I see a Kate with bomb racks and not a transport plane, I'm a little puzzled. However, in 1944 there was so much diversity in units due to emphasis of the composite unit concept, I guess there must have been a sub-unit of bombers.

Re: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate> Date: Friday, 17 November 2000, at 5:26 p.m.

In Response To: Re: I.D. Photo No.2: Nakajima B5N2 Kate (Tom Hall)

Hi Tom
Thank you.
The [CS-] I.D. may indeed have been for a unit of the "Shina Homen Kantai" (also translated as the "Sino Area Fleet," which included French Indo-China, today's Republic of Vietnam). This code was generally used for many aircraft, not just transports. I had not made the connection. I appreciate the memory jog!!!
This photo may have been taken over French Indo-China in early 1942 as judged by the lack of a yellow wing L/E IFF stripe on the Kate and the terrain in the backgroun. Of course this is pure speculation on my part!
Jim Lansdale

Kate colors

Posted By: Vicente Dobroruka <vicente@guarany.cpd.unb.br>
Date: Friday, 13 November 1998, at 6:16 a.m.

Hello everyone!
Seems a lot of people are building Kates these days. I am finishing the 1/72 "China 1939" from Hasegawa, with its rotten instructions and all. I would like anyone to tell me what is, exactly, the "Nakajima cockpit color", and whether the rear fins should be bright or dull red. The Japanese planes in China were commonly painted in bright colors (due to the lack of proper opposition, I presume), but it seems a bit odd to me to have a military aircraft painted bright.
Besides, the bombs and the cowling should be flat black, isn`t it? Sorry if all this sounds a little too basic, but this Kate is the first model I try in 15 years.
Thanks for the attention!
Vicente

Re: Kate colors

Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Friday, 13 November 1998, at 11:28 p.m.

In Response To: Kate colors (Vicente Dobroruka)

Hi Vicente,
I suppose you mean gloss colors when you indicate bright don't you ?

First it is not true that IJNAF planes in China were mostly finished in their peacetime regulation colors.

At the beginning of the conflict, all types of aircraft progressively received an uppersurface coat of two ton (Dk. Green and Reddish Brown most of the time, I will not enter in a more detailed study that, anyway will be stranger to the Kate). For the B5N1's they were originally delivered natural metal finish with the cowling and a scalloped extension from behind the windscreen to the cowling undersurface of a very dark gray (almost black) and - surprising or not - glossy coat of paint. The tail unit was regulation painted red (somewhat glossy as new). This last color was destined to play the same role the yellow main plane upper surface color was used by the USN in the same period: help to locate a ditch or force landed plane. When camouflage was applied, and it was applied by the IJNAF not the manufacturer, the red tail was generally deleted but the blackish gray was retained. Camouflage colors appears on some photos a bit glossy, but far less than the glossy aspect of the cowling. On a model it is safe to go the matte side. More important, these camo colors were applied without primer, so much peeling and fast degradation is observed. Notice that when air supremacy was obtained, the application of camouflage gradually disappeared and "peacetime" regulation finish reappeared (only the heavy twin engine bombers keeping their camouflage paint till the end and beyond).

The 12th Kokutai Kate Hasegawa present in its kit seems relatively conform to the picture of the plane represented.

Nakajima cockpit color at this time seems to have been a very light olive with much yellow in it, lighter and much yellower than the Mitsubishi one which approximate the US Interior green (FS 34651.

The Bombs: They were GRAY (a dark gray) with a color code as markings.

Be extremely careful with the gloss or matte notion in a model of this size. IMHO, it is safe and looks more real to treat high gloss zones as semi-gloss and semi gloss zone as eggshell finish or even matte. Remember that paint unless it is a very resistant one tends to dull in time.

Hope it helps.

Friendly.
FPW

Re: Kate colors

Posted By: Vicente Dobroruka <vicente@guarany.cpd.unb.br>
Date: Saturday, 14 November 1998, at 3:58 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Kate colors (François P. WEILL)

Dear François,
This was VERY helpful indeed! I was really glad I was right "guessing" that Nakajima cockpit was olive + white...By civil colors you mean those Vals and Kates painted yellow with red cowlings, I suppose. This would be indeed very nice to finish.Hasegawa's Kate has some problems in the instructions and in the photo of the painted model. Anyway, your advice is greatly appreciated and I am sure my next Kate will be even nicer. Is it possible to send a photo of it in this Web site?
Finally: you were quite right, I meant "gloss" instead of "bright"...

Yours,
Vicente Dobroruka

Re: Kate colors

Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Saturday, 14 November 1998, at 4:35 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Kate colors (Vicente Dobroruka)

Dear Vicente,
Sorry to disappoint you. When I mean peacetime finish, I mean an IJNAF (not civilian) finish corresponding to the situation of this armed force during a peacetime period.

To my humble knowledge, if there are some reasons (unconfirmed) to believe ONE Val may have been paint yellow (probably trainer orange-yellow) for Pearl Harbor operation to be easier to spot as a leading-assembly plane, the yellow painted Vals and Kates with red cowlings are pure fantasy.

What I meant was that uncamouflaged Kates as they were originally delivered were natural metal finish with red tail unit and blackish gray cowling and scalloped zone behind the windscreen. This what I meant with "peacetime" pre-war finish.

To make an acceptable Nakajima interior green, I will add to US interior green yellow (to give it a more tan appearance) and then, only if I obtained a too dark effect some white.

Friendly.
FPW

Re: Kate colors

Posted By: Vicente Dobroruka <vicente@guarany.cpd.unb.br>
Date: Saturday, 14 November 1998, at 7:49 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Kate colors (François P. WEILL)

Dear François,
Again, thanks for the attention. Concerning the yellow Vals, on Bill Gunston's Aircraft of World War 2 - 600 Full-Color Drawings (London: Octopus Books Ltd., 1980) there is one of those D3A1s, complete with markings. The author says it was one of the first production aircraft, operating from land bases from China and Indo-China in the beginning of 1940.
The yellow Kate I once saw is probably product of someone's fantasy, since the book in which it appeared is not reliable and I never saw any of them in such finish again. Anyway, Bill Gunston's Val is not on the familiar orange finish, but real yellow.
May I ask you one last question? As you may have already noticed I am deeply interested in Sino-Japanese warplanes. Where may I get Chine Nationalist AF 1/72 kits (or at least the decals?). I am especially fond of the Hawk 75 for export with fixed landing gear, the I-16s, I-15s and I-153 of the Kuomintang. Maybe you can help me find them on the Web...

Yours,
Vicente

Re: Kate colors

Posted By: Mike Quan <MnkQuan@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sunday, 15 November 1998, at 12:28 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Kate colors (Vicente Dobroruka)

Dear Vincente,
Regarding your inquiry into Chinese Nationalist aircraft, there is a new kit by Sword of a 72nd scale Vultee P-66 Vanguard fighter with Chi-Nat markings included. It can be viewed on the NKR website. Unfortunately, I do not have that page bookmarked, but I access it thru www.IPMSUSA.org. I then go to the SIG link, scroll down to "Luftwaffe '46", then use their 'modeling links' to get to NKR which is a hobby shop in Australia that has the best prices on Czech kits!!!!! Go figure that one! Hope this helps.

Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors *PIC*> Date: Monday, 4 September 2000, at 2:18 p.m.

Preliminary examination and analyses of two separate Aichi D3A Val and two Nakajima B5N Kates brought down at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941 have resulted in the following information.
Three separate metal skin fragments, a nearly complete dive brake assembly, and a sample of fabric have been provided by the TOONEY Family and from the DANN Collection. Todd PEDERSON and Bill WOLF spent considerable time recently in Hawaii examining the Val fragments collected at the time of the crash in a sugar cane field, and others from other sites. The TOONEY Family Collection included a sample of fabric from the control surfaces. PEDERSON reported all were hairyokushoku (gray-green) toward khaki.
The fabric sample examined was similar to FS-24201/16350 and the Munsell match was 10 Y 5/1. The metal samples were close to FS-16350 toward FS-16160 or close to Munsell 5 Y 5/3.
The DANN Collection included a dive brake assembly from a KAGA Val thought to have crashed on the USS CURTISS. Comparing these pieces to the FS 595B Color Fan samples the dive brake pieces are most like FS-24201 toward FS-16160 (Munsell 5 Y 5/4). Both Val sets of relics still had the original gloss paint and no evidence of primer undercoat. The reverse sides of the pieces were aotake/aodake translucent green.
An analysis of the Hospital Kate fragments by Greg SPRINGER in the NIMITZ Museum Collection and another fragment from Dan HIPPLE/LANSDALE Collections revealed that the Kate had been painted hairyokushoku (gray green) or FS-24201/16350 (Munsell 7.5 Y 6/2) on the wing upper and lower surfaces. The wing upper surfaces were then overpainted with a dark green FS-34077 (Munsell 5 GY 3/1). Greg SPRINGER got readings which included FS-34079 for the dark green. Again, as in the Val samples, there was no evidence of a primer coat. Another Kate fragment in the Stan COHEN collection is natural metal and the sample is so small it may have lost its original paint top coat. The reverse side of all the Kate samples were aotake/aodake translucent blue-green.
Preliminary conclusions are that the Vals and Kates which participated in the Pearl Harbor attack were painted in colors similar to the Zeros (with the exception that the Kates had varying degrees of dark green over the upper surfaces).
Is it possible that the tendency of the Vals or Kates to appear in this, as David AIKEN aptly described as "grey poupon," livery (Japanese Color Standards I3) caused some observers to describe this color as a "yellow" in the early morning light?
The only other fragment of a Val examined was one recovered several years ago which, due to severe oxidation appears to be a chalky gray finish. The fragments in the studies cited above have all been sheltered from any weathering and stored since collected in December 1941.
Dave PLUTH will shortly be posting photos of these relics on the Pearl Harbor Research page.
Jim Lansdale
P.S. The scan below is from a fragment of the HIRANO Zero from Todd PEDERSON. This color is close to the original hue of the Val pieces.

Pearl Harbor Downed Aircraft

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: Claus Krüger <mailto:rana24@freenet.de?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 12:46 p.m.

In Response To: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Hello to all,
the color greygreen for Aichi Val's is a great surprise to me.MA 406 give's in the Text behind the Aichi color chip a description-a little darker as Mitsubishi. The text behind the Mitsubishi Gray say's-a Gray without any Blue or Green. Is my Translation incorrect or is the color description in MA 406 wrong ? Who can give me some help ?
Best Regards Claus

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 1:46 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (Claus Krüger)

Claus
Colors used by many artists and authors in the past have been based on opinion or on previous color art, not actual color comparisons to real relics from aircraft. The color studies conducted by MIKESH, OWAKI, SPRINGER, THORPE, TOEWS, and myself are based on actual pieces of aircraft, not what someone's interpretation of what the colors should have been or written descriptions of the aircraft hues.
Vals may have been in so-called "Mitsubishi gray," as reported in MA No.406, however, the actual relics analyzed were in the colors reported.
Jim Lansdale

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Monday, 4 September 2000, at 8:26 p.m.

In Response To: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

So, is this to say that a model depicting an early war Val/Kate should be in the gray/green? I had been under the impression that many or most Kates had natural metal or alclad undersurfaces, and may have had green patches over natural metal on the upper surfaces. Should this be the gray/green instead?

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 4:38 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (Phil)
Phil
You wrote:
"So, is this to say that a model depicting an early war Val/Kate should be in the gray/green?"
Unfortunately, for all those who have built models of these aircraft in the past, it would appear that the standard color for Vals and Kates at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack was overall hairyokushoku (gray-green or "grey poupon"). Kates were overpainted, prior to the attack, in dark green upper surfaces. Some sources claim that brown was also used and several artists have depicted this scheme. Thus far, no relics have shown evidence of brown paint. The difference in mottling on the upper surfaces of Kates, as evidenced by b/w photography, is probably due to the varied thickness of the hastily applied dark-green paint over top of the hairyokushoku.
The variance in the hairyokushoku hues (i.e. gray-green to a somewhat "tan" gray-green) may have been due to different paint suppliers or paint specifications by aircraft manufacturer. Many early Vals and Kates were either NMF or painted silver (particularly those used in the campaign in China or in French Indo-China). It is also quite possible that some Kates had NMF lower surfaces at Pearl Harbor, but this is not certain. Check out the SORYU Kate photo in FAOW No.32 on page 44 (bottom).
One Val relic recovered from the Solomons did have aluminum paint on the lower surfaces, but the remaining relics of Vals from this theater do have hairyokushoku (gray-green toward khaki) lower surfaces. This color is very much like what OWAKI-san posted as the Official Color Standards color called "I 3."
Jim Lansdale

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 9:51 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (James F. Lansdale)

This helps immensely. I have only three questions left. One, what is "FAOW"? I've always enjoyed modeling Japanese subjects, but I'm not too current on some of the resources. Two, what paint currently on the market most closely matches this "grey poupon" color? Thirdly, and I know this is less relevant, but how were late war Kates painted? Was the underside color the same, or was it changed? Thanks for all your help.

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 7:12 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (James F. Lansdale)

Konnichi wa, a recipe I haven't tried yet, found in Model Art 510, suggests a mix with Tamiya XF-49 (Chaki) 60%, XF-21 (Sky)40% and a little white, black, yellow and green. Mr. Lansdale, what is your oppinion whether a clear gloss varnish was applied on top of this color or not?
domo, George

Re: Paint Schemes/No Varnish Top Coat

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Paint Schemes/No Varnish Top Coat> Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 8:57 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (Elephtheriou George)

Hi George
You ask, "(Was) a clear gloss varnish ... applied on top of this color?"
There has been much controversy regarding this alleged practice on the A5M Claude. No physical proof for this practice was ever produced. The "Kamikaze" sponsored by the Asahi Shimbun, which did an around the world good will tour during the 1930s, did have a very smooth clear top coat, but this practice does not appear to have been carried out on military aircraft.
I have physically examined nearly two hundred samples of IJA/NAF aircraft relics. Only one sample had evidenced a varnish top coat. However, I believe that the owner applied this coat on top of the Zero access panel after the war to preserve the paint below and it was not done at the factory.
During the early war years, the paint used by the Japanese was a clear binder to which a pigment was added. The gloss produced was the nature of the binder. Later, the Japanese added talc/clay to the paint mixture in order to produce a non-specular or matte finish. This paint formula was first tested by the Yokosuka technical test center in December 1941 (Yoko Report No.0266)
Jim Lansdale

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Monday, 4 September 2000, at 9:32 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (Phil)

Hi Phil,
Several artifacts from B5N2s off the carrier 'Kaga' which were shot down at PH and which are held in storage by the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg have a glossy base coat matched to FS 16350 or a slightly lighter shade of same. Top sides are very flat dark greens in the range FS 34079, 34064, 34084. Baylor eh? Don't do much dancin' do ya'll? ;^)
Cheers! (Oops, sorry. You're in Waco.)
Greg (Austin-based wise guy)

Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors> Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 4:45 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Pearl Harbor Val/Kate Colors (Phil)

Hi Phil
FAOW (FAW or FAOTW) represents "Famous Aircraft Of the World" series published by BUNRINDO (of Koku Fan fame) and some are available through HLJ or Aviation USK. I believe No.32 is out of print.
I am unfamiliar with the commercial paints which are similar to the varied hues of hairyokushoku. Some folks, like Greg SPRINGER and Ryutaro NAMBU, have formulated their own versions which are truly remarkable! Perhaps they will share their "recipes" with you.
I have not seen any mid to late war Kate relic samples, but they probably were dark green upper with blue-gray (J2) lower surfaces. Vals, as evidenced by relics I have examined, were darkgreen upper with blue-gray (J2) lower surfaces for those manufactured during late 1942 on. Between February to late 1942 the lower surfaces of Vals were either hairyokushoku or some other field color. I have examined at least one early model Val relic from the Solomons which still had the aluminum paint on the lower surfaces from the pre-war period.
IHTH
Jim Lansdale

Kate PH underwing markings

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Kate PH underwing markings> Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 12:43 a.m.

Hi all, I somehow recently JUST noticed that the Kate being pulled out of the harbor after the attack has a large number painted under at least one wing. How prevalent was this? Did Kates from all carriers have this? How were the numbers assigned?

Re: Kate PH underwing markings

Posted By: Harvey Low <mailto:harveyl@interlog.com?subject=Re: Kate PH underwing markings> Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 6:24 p.m.

In Response To: Kate PH underwing markings (Phil)

Here's some more thoughts and theories. Some Kates had their individual aircraft number on the undersides of both wings in large black numerals. It is thought that this number was used during pre-war training exercises as a device for ground staff to identify and provide for further training of the pilots in level bombing and torpedo exercises.
Some researchers speculate that only Kates given the task of torpedo attack, were given such numbers - particularly with the shallow depth of Pearl and the need for new and different tactics. Others speculate only the port-side wing carried this number. In any case, these numbers would have been largely removed after Pearl Harbor.

Re: Kate PH underwing markings

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Kate PH underwing markings> Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 7:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Kate PH underwing markings (Harvey Low)

Hi Harvey
A series of photos of Kates from the RYUJO (No. 4 Koku Sentai) making a level bombing attack on Dutch Harbor on June 3-4, 1942 (see Maru Special No. 97: "Japanese Naval Operations in W.W. II," p.85) illustrate that the underwing numerals were still being carried on that date by those aircraft. One photo clearly shows the large "62" carried under the starboard wing of a RYUJO Kate [D1-362] over Dutch Harbor!
Therefore, I would like to propose that Kates at the Battle of Midway from the carriers of Nos. 1 and 2 Koku Sentai may have been carrying underwing numerals as well on June 4-5, 1942 in that campaign.
Jim Lansdale

Re: Kate PH underwing markings

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Kate PH underwing markings> Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 7:04 a.m.

In Response To: Kate PH underwing markings (Phil)

Phil -
From the information that I have, all PH Kates were marked this way with the numbers in black. The number corresponded to the last two digits of the tail code.
HTH
- Grant

Re: Thanks! and...

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Thanks! and...> Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 3:08 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Thanks! and... (Grant Goodale)

Grant and Phil,
Grant is correct. If the plane was flying over, you would see the same one or two digit number painted on each wing with the tops of the numbers towards the leading edge of each wing. Two digit numbers were painted on either side of the wing fold joint. That's why the code for the Hospital Kate is currently unknown. The only portion of the wings to survive intact was the right outer wing with a 5 on it. Thus the tail code was AII-35?. Pick a number from 0 to 9 except for 6 which has been verified for another plane. All Kate losses at PH were from the Kaga's torpedo unit.
Cheers!
Greg

Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jon Parshall <mailto:jonp@is.com?subject=Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Friday, 30 June 2000, at 3:36 p.m.

Anybody know the internal fuel capacity of the Zero, Kate, and Val? I'll take liters, gallons, pounds, drams, pints... whatever, and I isn't real picky about the specific model, either.
Thanks,
-jon parshall- www.CombinedFleet.com

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Saturday, 1 July 2000, at 8:44 p.m.

In Response To: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

This is from Aircraft in Profile #240 "Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith):
Fuel Capacity of D3A "Internal 1,079 liters (235 Imperial gallons) in five unprotected tanks; two in each wing, one under pilot's seat, all containing 92 octane petrol. In starboard wing root, a small fuel tank (100 octane) for take of; 58 liter (25.8 Imperial gal.). One 60 liter (13.2 Imp.gal.) oil tank behind the engine."
Will dig out data on Zero and Kate.

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jon Parshall <mailto:jonp@is.com?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 1:19 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jim Broshot)

You The Man. I'm guessing the Kate carried about 180 gallons. I subtracted her empty weight (2,279kg) from her loaded weight (3,800kg), plus payload and all that and got about 496kg. of fuel.
Loaded: 3,800 Empty: 2,279 - Payload: 800 - Crew: 225 - (figuring 75kg./165lb. per crewman x 3 crew)
= Fuel 496 kg.
Specific density of gasolines are around .74, so 496 kilos of fuel is 496/.74= 671 liters. 671 liters is 177 gallons.
-jon-

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 5:58 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

Thanks. Got tired of playing Diablo II, so A6M fuel capacity:
A6M1 - internal: 518 liters (114 Imp.gal.)
drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)
A6M2 Model 21 - ditto
A6M2-N: internal: ditto
auxiliary tank in central float: 325 liters (71.5 Imp.gal.)
A6M2-K: internal: 380 liters (83.6 Imp.gal.)
from "The Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero-Sen" (by Rene J. Francillon, PhD) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME SIX (Martin C. Windrow, General Editor); Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1970 (No ISBN)
A6M3-Model 22: internal: 570 liters (125.4 Imp.gal.)
drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)
A6M3-Model 32: internal: 480 liters (105.6 Imp.gal.)
drop tank: same as above
from "The Mitsubishi A6M3 Zero-Sen ("Hamp")" (Rene J. Francillon, PhD) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME EIGHT (Martin C. Windrow, General Editor); Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1970 (No ISBN)
A6M5 Model 52: internal: 540 liters (189 Imp.gal.)
drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)
NOTE: A6M7 Model 63 carried bomb on center line rack, had 2x 150 liter (33 Imp.gal.) wing-mounted drop tanks A6M8 Model 54 also carried center line bomb rack, had 2x 350 liter (77 Imp.gal ) wing mounted drop tanks. From "Mitsubishi A6M5 to A6M8 Zero-Sen ('Zeke 52')" (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME 12 (Charles W. Cain, General Editor); Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1974 (ISBN (US) 0-385-09670-4)

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jon Parshall <mailto:jonp@is.com?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 7:36 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jim Broshot)

Thank you, and thank you for some of the citation data; I neglected to mention that I need that, too. Would it be asking too much to request the complete cite for this Val information? I went looking on Amazon for other books of this series to grab the cite that way, but no luck. Thanks; I really appreciate it!
-jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Page http://www.combinedfleet.com/

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A> Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 12:16 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

Full cite is:
"Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME 13 (Charles W. Cain, General Editor); Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1974 (ISBN (USA) 0-385-09671-2).
Have privilege of owning all thirteen hardbound volumes (it took 30+ years to get them all).
"Kate" Profile (No. 141 in Volume 6, and written by Dr. M. F. Hawkins), alas, has NO data on B5N capacity except to state that, "integral fuel tanks, incorporating wing upper and lower skin, were dropped between the main and rear spar of the center section and fastened by a hinge arrangement along the edges."
Will check the A6M stuff when I have time later.

Fuchida's Kate

Posted By: Blair Younkin <mailto:Bucco36@aol.com?subject=Fuchida's Kate> Date: Saturday, 8 July 2000, at 10:13 a.m.

Hi Everyone, Can anyone clear up the question for me about Cmdr Fuchida's Kate tail markings? Thorpe's book indicates that it had alternating red and yellow striping, but kit markings indicate three yellow stripes with carrier identification numerals. Which is right?

Re: Fuchida's Kate

Posted By: Dr Mike Hawkins <mailto:mikeh@samart.co.th?subject=Re: Fuchida's Kate> Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 9:25 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuchida's Kate (Tennessee Katsuta)

I wrote the profile on the Type 97 Kate and the color drawing showing a SILVER aircraft was based on a 3 view of the aircraft that I had sent to Capt. Fuchida himself. He marked the sketch and noted "Some aircraft were painted brown green or yellow but mine was silver." In his biography of Fuchida, Gordon Prange noted that he kept no diary and details needed to be checked.
I have no doubt that the aircraft was silver before the sortie started but that it was repainted with the others when the fleet assembled. This rapid green paint job was flaking off when the Indian Ocean photos were taken some 5 months later. The tail was red with three yellow bars and " AI-301" on it. Underside must have been left silver. The Japanese books say light grey but have you ever tried to spray the underside of an aircraft in a crowded hangar and a hurry ?
Please e - mail me direct if you wish to discuss further. Mike Hawkins (Dr.)

Re: Fuchida's Kate

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Fuchida's Kate> Date: Friday, 28 July 2000, at 4:13 p.m.

In Response To: Fuchida's Kate (Blair Younkin)

To add further confusion, Profile # 141 shows the Kate as all natural finish with the red and yellow tail stripes and number 301 at the top of the tail. Thorpe shows it as S1 finish (N1/N2/N3 upper with N10 lower), red and yellow tail stripes and number 301 at the top of the tail.
I have consulted other books on Pearl Harbor and they make no mention of Fuchida's aircraft scheme.
Does anyone have anything definitive about this bird during the Pearl Harbor attack ?

Re: Fuchida's Kate *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Fuchida's Kate *PIC*> Date: Tuesday, 22 August 2000, at 6:12 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuchida's Kate (Mike Quan)

Mike/Grant
There is still a great deal of controversy regarding this issue. There are a lot of photos of Kates which participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor. None are all natural metal. It is unlikely any were natural metal on all surfaces.
The majority, if not all Kates participating, were most likely overpainted in gray-green (hairyokushoku) with varying degrees of dark green mottling over the upper surfaces (based on existing relic analyses and photographs taken on 7 December 1941).

Re: Fuchida's Kate

Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <mailto:kinson-garments@on.aibn.com?subject=Re: Fuchida's Kate> Date: Monday, 10 July 2000, at 8:44 p.m.

In Response To: (Blair Younkin)

Hi, Blair
Fuchida's Kate had tail code AI-301 with three yellow stripes. It's difficult to tell what the background color of the tail was, but historians seem to agree that the background color was red. There is a photograph of Fuchida's Kate taken (I believe it's from a movie) during the Indian Ocean campaign.
Tennessee

New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?

Posted By: Lance Braman <mailto:bonesdog@m17.alpha-net.ne.jp?subject=New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?>
Date: Tuesday, 23 January 2001, at 7:47 a.m.

Just a quick check, since Hasegawa has been known to make errors before (like on the F4U-5N): SILVER undersides with green tops? Most all the artwork I can find shows gray unders, though I have drawings of silver B5N1s. Is my artwork all wrong, or did Hase do another "We meant light gray but told you silver" stunt. Hard to believe they'd screw up on a Kate, but....

Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?> Date: Thursday, 25 January 2001, at 7:01 a.m.

In Response To: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!? (Lance Braman)
Lance, To the best of my knowledge Com. Fuchida,s bird was natural metal (or silver ) on the bottom. This seems to be the consensus of the people who are in the know. However the Soryu aircraft should have the gray underside from what I understand. Good luck, Merv

Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?

Posted By: Larry Bishop <mailto:dak57@home.com?subject=Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?> Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 12:21 p.m.

In Response To: Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!? (Merv Brewer)
Merv, Why would Fuchida's aircraft have natural metal undersurfaces when all the other Kates were painted grey, while they were training or aboard the carriers(depending on your sources)? IMHO it doesn't make sense one aircraft would be left unpainted on the undersurfaces. Comments??

Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!?> Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 2:13 p.m.

In Response To: Re: New Hase Kate: Silver unders?!? (Larry Bishop)
Larry, The consensus for "Those in the know" seems to be that Fuchida plane was natural metal finish until it was painted aboard the carrier. I think that I remember seeing a thread on the Nats Board at one time stating that Fuchida himself had mentioned this. In any event, photographs of his aircraft taken during the Indian Ocean campaign show the paint has chipped dramatically and what appears to be natural metal underneath. Now for the other part of the question. It makes perfect sense for one aircraft to be a different color. Especially a commanders aircraft. Commanding officers the caliber of Fuchida, had a tendency to fly their personal assigned air craft on every training mission that their group flew. This meant that Fuchida's aircraft probably had little time for anything but essential maintenance until shortly before the operation. Another possibility is that this was a last minute replacement aircraft. Anyway who knows? It could be Gray.

Merv

Arizona Kate

Posted By: Rich Lane <mailto:carrlane@aol.com?subject=Re: arizona kate> Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 8:31 a.m.

In Response To: arizona kate (david kidd)

David,
I am not sure about color markings but I have often wondered how the cockpits varied from the horizontal bombing Kates vs the torpedo bombing Kates. The horizontal bombing Kates used an optical Type 90 bombsight and I believe this bombsight was used to deliver the fatal 800 KG bomb hit on the Arizona. The torpedo bombing Kates used a non-optical sight mounted in the cockpit window. It would be interesting to know if these aircraft had only one type of sight mounted in their cockpits. For example, the Type 90 bombsight would be of no use to a torpedo equipped Kate. It wound be interesting to know if the horizontal bombing units were only equipped with the Type 90 bombsight and not the non-optical torpedo sight.
Rich Lane

Re: high-level bomb sight in torp KATE

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: high-level bomb sight in torp KATE> Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 9:20 a.m.

In Response To: Re: arizona kate (Rich Lane)

Aloha Rich, From the crashed Kaga torpedo plane AII-356: "One bombsight (in a very battered condition) was removed from this airplane. All identification and instruction plates are missing..." Souvenir hunters took a host of important intelligence items. "A torpedo director was removed from the wreckage..." So both were evident in the torpedo plane. HTH, Cheers, David Aiken

Kate Squadron Bombing Method

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Kate Squadron Bombing Method> Date: Sunday, 1 October 2000, at 9:24 p.m.

Hi everybody,
I just returned from the Pacific Air Ops Symposium at Fredricksburg, Texas. One of the guests was Mr. Taisuke Maruyama who, in his career with the Imperial Japanese Navy, torpedoed the Oklahoma at Pearl Harbor, bombed Darwin, Australia, dropped a torpedo at the Yorktown at Midway and one at the Hornet at Santa Cruz. He also bombed airfields on Saipan from his Frances at the very end of the war.
He gave a very interesting description of the method of group horizontal bombing as practiced by the IJN in the early years of the war. In a carrier air group, the crew which made the best scores in training was designated the master bomber for the outfit. When a strike was launched, this crew flew in the second slot of the echelon of the squadron. As the flight neared the target, the leader would drop back and the master bomber would take his place at the point of the vee. The pilot would communicate via voice tube with the observer/bombardier in the middle cockpit. This pair would use vocal inflections to perfect their timing. The radio man/gunner in the rear cockpit would hold up a flag which the observers in all the other planes in the formation would focus on. At the moment of release, the gunner would drop his flag and all other planes would simultaneously release their bomb loads. According to David Aiken, this flag was white and if the bombardier aborted the drop, the gunner would rapidly wave the flag back and forth and the whole squadron would circle around for another run at the target. Maruyama-san said he thought this was a uniquely Japanese low-tech system.
Cheers!
Greg

Re: Kate Squadron Bombing Method

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Kate Squadron Bombing Method> Date: Monday, 2 October 2000, at 4:37 a.m.

In Response To: Kate Squadron Bombing Method (Greg Springer)

Aloha All, Hope there is something left for my ABOVE PEARL volume that might interest the 'die hard' researchers. The discovery of the simple bombing method was a task in getting a consensus of memories. The number of five plane groups that made 'go arounds' was surprising. One unit made three treks across BB Row before their drop at 0830, and they missed! Cheers, David Aiken

PH Kate Bomb arrangement

Posted By: Mike Quan <mailto:MnkQuan@worldnet.att.net?subject=PH Kate Bomb arrangement> Date: Wednesday, 20 September 2000, at 8:07 a.m.

Hi All!
In researching the bomb load-outs of the Kates participating in the Pearl Harbor raid for the j-aircraft Group Project for the 2001 IPMS Nats, many sources quote three arrangements: 1) 1 x 800 kg bomb 2) 6 x 60 kg bombs 3) 2 x 250 kg bombs
The first two arrangements can be had with the release of 72nd scale Kate kits. #1 is provided as a special resin part in a limited edition release by Hasegawa, and #2 is a kit option in the Mania/Hasegawa B5N1 kit, with bombs carried on bomb-carrier rails. However, there is no mention or sources for how two 250 kg bombs were carried on a Kate. A single carrier rail with the bombs in tandem? The two bombs carried side-by-side away from the centerline? Your expertise on the board requested and appreciated! Thanks, Mike Quan

Re: PH Kate Bomb arrangement

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: PH Kate Bomb arrangement> Date: Wednesday, 20 September 2000, at 6:46 p.m.

In Response To: PH Kate Bomb arrangement (Mike Quan)

Hi Mike,
The two 250s are staggered with the left one forward. Each hangs from a single rack which looks exactly like the one on bomb-carrying Zero 21s. There are photos on page 33 of the original Maru Mechanic that show the front end of the right rack being even with the rear edge of the right wheel well. The plans show it is 765 mm to the right of the centerline and the left rack is 300 mm to the right of the centerline, the same distance as the torpedo mount.
Cheers!
Greg

Re: PH Kate Bomb arrangement

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: PH Kate Bomb arrangement> Date: Thursday, 21 September 2000, at 10:28 p.m.

In Response To: PH Kate Bomb arrangement (Mike Quan)

Not sure how much help this is but, AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE NO. 141 "The Nakajima B5N 'Kate'" (Dr.M. F. Hawkins) in VOLUME 6 has two photos of B5N1s carrying 3x 250kg bombs in a what appears to be in a single line (in tandem?) under the fuselage (and a third showing the empty racks); the author notes:
"For bomb aiming he [the observer/navigator/bomb-aimer] opened small doors in the floor, offset to the left of the stores carried under the fuselage."
The alternative weapons loads are noted as
6x 60kg bombs OR 3x 250kg bombs OR 1x 800kg torpedo (carried offset to the right of the fuselage center line)

Hiryu Kates at Midway

Posted By: Bill Thomas <mailto:billtthom@aol.com?subject=Hiryu Kates at Midway> Date: Friday, 20 October 2000, at 6:36 p.m.

I just found this website and thought someone might help me with a question I have pondered for years. There were 18 Kates from Hiryu in the morning strike on Midway. I do not recall the exact numbers given in loss reports, but it was not half the group.
Does anyone know why then there were only 10 Kates in the 2nd strike on Yorktown? What happened to the others? With the situation so desperate that Tomanonga left with damaged gas tanks, it seems anything that could fly was sent out.
Thanks in advance.
BillT

Re: Hiryu Kates at Midway

Posted By: Mark E. Horan <mailto:mhoran@snet.net?subject=Re: Hiryu Kates at Midway> Date: Saturday, 21 October 2000, at 6:27 p.m.

In Response To: Hiryu Kates at Midway (Bill Thomas)

Just a note: I can't think of a worse source than Barker's book. Anyway ...
The Tomanaga Striking Force consisted of 107 attackers, 1 of the 18 Hiryu Kanko having aborted during form up.

Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?

Posted By: William Reece <mailto:william_reece@ncsu.edu?subject=Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 2:50 p.m.

Gang,

I've read with great interest most if not all of the postings to the Nats Project Board and the IJN Aircraft Board regarding the Pearl Harbor attack aircraft. I am particularly interested in the colors and markings of the B5N2 'Kate'high-level bombers. As I'm sure you are aware there has been much discussion and comment regarding them. Now with the release of the Hasegawa 1/48th 'Kate' I have some questions which may be relevant.

1) What is the proper scheme for the Soryu/Hiryu 'Kates' The consensus appears to be I3 (Grey-Poupon, FS-x3440) with a dark green (FS-34052-34079-34086) and brown ('China' Brown, FS-30097-30099) mottle on the upper surfaces. However in my notes, saved for quite some time, I have one which relates that the upper surfaces as have only a green mottle and that the light areas are the I3 showing through. Thoughts on this? This is most relevant since one of the Hasegawa kit options is BI-318.

2) What is an appropriate color for the D3A 'Val' dive-bombers? Is the consensus J3 for Akagi and I3 for all others?

3) Is there a 'plan' for the command stripes on the tails? Yellow and carrier division color seem to be the dominant colors in published artwork. Why and how?

I'm sure that I have more questions. Thanks for everything and thanks to Dave for a great website.

William Reece

BII 307

Posted By: Dan Salamone <mailto:heroncreek@qwest.net?subject=BII 307>

Date: Saturday, 10 February 2001, at 10:02 a.m.

In Response To: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions? (William Reece)

Hi William,

Tough call on the green/brown mottle scheme. The way I look at it is that the Kates from the different ships all showed some variation in schemes. This was probbaly due to the individuals who were charged with painting the planes before the attack (Hiroyuki stated last week (?) that the planes were painted during the work up period, rather than en route to Pearl).

I'm sure the individuals had differing views on what would work- as well as what paint stocks the ships had at hand.

I'm sitting here looking at a photo of "BII-307" on pages 48-49 of FAOW #32. I can see both points of view that it was either a brown mottle- or the undersurface color bleeding through an irregular coating of dark green. What I've never noticed before is how the dark green appears to vary in pattern of application (mid-cockpit the green is rather linear, where under the pilot the application seems more dappled). Also notice the different application of the dark green on the leading edges of the wings- roughly at the wing fold break area.

As a modeller I "like" the brown mottle theory as it adds artistic interest. Like stated below, since none were lost that day and there are no relics it cannot be proven either way- I will probably paint mine with brown mottles FWIW.

Last thought on this aircraft..... the little bit of the fuselage bands we can see in this photo appear to show the bands in a weathered state. Could lend credence to the theory of the dark green showing the lower color?

Dan

Re: BII 307; "Sakura Pink" Or Brown?

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: BII 307; 'Sakura Pink' Or Brown?>
Date: Saturday, 10 February 2001, at 12:31 p.m.

In Response To: BII 307 (Dan Salamone)

Hi Dan

You wrote, "As a modeller I 'like' the brown mottle theory as it adds artistic interest. ... since none were lost that day and there are no relics it cannot be proven either way- I will probably paint mine with brown mottles."

I know a friend who heard abount two "pink" Kates as well. But since none of these were shot down, their existance "cannot be proven either way" and he is going with "Sakura Pink" FS-11630 for his version of [BII-307] with Rufe-purple mottles!

Please accept my apologies! I am just having a little fun here, albeit at your expense! (;>)

Very best regards

Jim Lansdale

Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?

Posted By: Tom Matlosz <mailto:slayer14@bellsouth.net?subject=Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?>
Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 3:52 p.m.

In Response To: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions? (William Reece)

Bill,

In response to your question #3, I submitted the same challenge regarding the methodology for command stripe coloring last month. There were unfortunately, no replies. My interpretation...there is none.

I recently completed my rendition of Kobayashi's Val (BII-201) at Midway utilizing two blue command stripes.

Tom Matlosz

Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 7:54 p.m.

In Response To: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions? (William Reece)

Hi William,

Not proof but a 'clue' towards your first question:
HIRYU torpedo unit aircraft commander Teisuke Maruyama stated last Sept. 30 at a seminar at the Nimitz Museum that his aircraft at Pearl Harbor was painted dark green. He could not remember the individual aircraft number. Since only KAGA Kates were shot down, the question about the use of brown mottling is never going to be resolved. It's up to each modeler to decide for himself and no one can say he is right or wrong.

Cheers!

Greg

Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Soryu/Hiryu Kate Questions?>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 7:03 p.m.

In Response To: (William Reece)

William

In repsonse to your questions:

1) Model Art 573 (PH Attackers) shows a definite grey under surface and a green upper surface for the Soryu and Hiryu Kates. There is a very distinct mottling of brown on the upper surfaces and it is a very different colour from the under surface. The Kates from Shokaku and Zuikaku show a green mottle over grey. The grey is the same that appears on the under surface.

With regard to the whole question about brown mottling, there is a debate going on among various experten about this. One school of thought is we cannot tell from looking at b/w photos. I do not know who is right but I would go with the Model Art version and "accepted wisdom".

2) I have read the discussions and seen the scans of the relics that give rise to the different Val colour hypothesis. Model Art does not show any differences but I know what I see from the relic scans. Pay your money and take your chances.

3) I don't know the answer to that one.

HTH

Grant

Kate brown blotches and bomb color

Posted By: Jay Carrell <mailto:carrell2@livingston.net?subject=Kate brown blotches and bomb color>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2001, at 9:51 a.m.

I've started on my Hasegawa Kate and will build a more accurate model because of the knowledge gained from the discussion on this site. I greatly appreciate all of the
research and intellectual discourse from all sources. It can be very addictive.

My first Kate will be the "Arizona" bomber from the Soryu (kit decals-option 2). I plan to use the PS RR Concrete for the overall color with Dark IJN Green heavy overspray on top. This aircraft also had Brown mottling on the wings and fuselage. Any thoughts on the Brown? Dark Red-Brown, Earth, Propeller brown? I haven't heard of any artifacts with that color on them.

Also, any thoughts on the armor-piercing bomb color? I doubt anyone can reference any artifact colors here! The kit instructions call for a Nakajima Gray-Green.
Would the *4201+white+chromate mix be possible? Any thoughts or information would be greatly appreciated.

And last, a brief warning on the Kate. Be careful cutting out the x-shaped sprue in the cowl opening. I snipped mine and split the cowl from front to back! It was easily fixed and I can hardly find the crack now, but it did cause an anxious model moment.
Thanks,

Jay Carrell
Houston, Texas

Re: Kate brown blotches and bomb color

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Kate brown blotches and bomb color>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2001, at 4:05 p.m.

In Response To: Kate brown blotches and bomb color (Jay Carrell)

Jay

I am working on a 1/72 Hiryu Kate with the brown blotches. I am using Polly Scale IJA brown myself.

Note that these Kates were painted on board the ships after they left Japan. Without having any definitive reference, I could easily assume that the brown would likely be propeller brown. I think it somewhat unlikely that the ships would carry specific brown paint.

Remember that this is speculation on my part and should be taken as an expert statement!

FWIW

Grant

Re: Kate brown blotches and bomb color

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: Kate brown blotches and bomb color>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2001, at 10:54 a.m.

In Response To: Kate brown blotches and bomb color (Jay Carrell)

Greetings Jay, I built this same aircraft on my first outing. I used Poly-Scale IJA Brown for my Brown patches. It is very close to the color that I have seen chips of in one of my referance books. For the bomb I just used Gunship Gray. For the nose of the bomb I used white with an Dark O.D. (34079)tip. For a real good referance drawing of the bomb, go to the book Battleship Arizona by Paul Stillwell. On page 261 is the drawing. For the cowling problem, use some good sprue cutters. FYI, contrary to legand and acording to more recent information, it was a horizontal bombing group from the Hiryu that hit the Arizona. Hope this helps, Merv

Why Camo Kates Anyway

Posted By: Bob Morris <mailto:rmorris@expression.org?subject=Why Camo Kates Anyway> Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 10:04 a.m.

Thought occured after much research, why did the KAtes get camo added on way to PH? Seems Vals and Zeros didn't get same treatment. Perhaps a rather obvious A. but I still wonder.
Only possibility I see is that IJN tried to conceal bombers from US AC above them? If this was the reason I wonder why didn't all AC get same amount of paint?

Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway> Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 2:09 p.m.

In Response To: Why Camo Kates Anyway (Bob Morris)

From the opinion of one military historian: "Need Expediant" I do not know of any field orders, if such exist it would be to the knowledge of some of the more lurned gentelmen in the group. Because the torpedo planes were to go into their run at low level, it was likly felt that they needed some kind of camoflage to increase thier servivabilty. It would also make sence that as these paint schemes were carried out aboard ship, they would use whatever paint was avalible. Oviously they would not have a limitless supply of paint. Red for the tail of a cammand plane for example may be the same paint used for the national insignia. Green tops sides were most likly painted in what ever form of O.D. green that the IJN used. If a Kate needed the whole underserface painted, chances are they might use touch up paint for the battle ship. (Battle ship grey) The light grey used on the air craft were as I recall painted at the factory(or depot) so they probebly did not have much of that on board. Brown would again be what ever was on hand. Perhaps the Brown used on the "China Brown"(as I have heard it called) tails. Paint was probebly applied by what ever means possible. This might include spray gun, brushes or rags. My Point is this paint operation was done on a "Need Expedaint" basis. So what do you all think? Is this a fair asscesment, or am I just full of pidgon droppings? Kindest reguards, Merv

Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway

Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 8:04 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway (Merv Brewer)

According to ex-PH torpedo attacker veteran Haruo Yoshino, the B5Ns received their camos while they were training for the attack, not on board the carriers.
The reason the D3As and A6Ms did not receive camos is probably because they were not considered to be as vulnerable as the B5Ns. Dive bombers and two-seat recon seaplanes (eg E8Ns and F1Ms) were "supposed to be" able to hold its own against enemy fighters (because they often did so against Chinese fighters).

Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway

Posted By: Bill Leyh <mailto:hawk81@pacbell.net?subject=Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway> Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 4:10 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)

Hi All,
I believe Mr. Brewer hit it right on the head with his reasoning. Torpedo planes make their attacks from low altitude and therefore would be very vulnerable to attacks from defending fighters. Giving them a good dose of terrestrial camouflage would make them extremely difficult for marauding fighters above to visually acquire.
The case of the divebomber would be much different. Operating at high altitude would benefit from a lighter, reflective, "sky" coloring. Planes so colored are very difficult to spot against the sky until very close.
Regards,
Bill

Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway

Posted By: Merv Brewer <mailto:mervin.brewer@slc.k12.ut.us?subject=Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway> Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 10:06 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Why Camo Kates Anyway (Bob Morris)

Bob,
Exactaly the point I wanted to make. The torpedo planes were going to be slow low flying targets for the P-40's and the P-36's, if they had been up that morning. They needed to blend in with the ground as much as possible to increase their chances of serviving. Those of you who have the model art book, study closly the PICTURES of the air craft. Note that the "solid Green tops" on many of the kates seems to be applied in a hap-hazzard way. Look closely at the pictures of the Kaga High level Kates. One of them even seems to be missing the AII- on it's tail. Note also that the color of the tail appears to be of a slightly different tone than the fusalage. Hum, could this be the infamous brown tail that Dave Aiken has said existed on Kaga Kates? I tend to think so. Again happy modeling, Merv

Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942?

Posted By: Emmanuel <mailto:aecastro1@aol.com?subject=Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942?> Date: Monday, 12 February 2001, at 6:48 p.m.

Hi,
Can someone tell Lt.Abe's other two crew members' name and ranks in Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June, 1942. I think he was involved in the Midway Island attack with Tomonaga's group. He led his B5N2 squadron from SORYU I think. I would like to know his ID marks plane too? Thank you very much.

Re: Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942?

Posted By: Mark E. Horan <mailto:mhoran@snet.net?subject=Re: Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942?> Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 2:35 p.m.

In Response To: Lt.Abe's B5N2 from SORYU in June 1942? (Emmanuel)

WO Jisuke Kasahara (P) Lt. Henjio Abe (O) PO1c Toshi Ono (RO)

B5N Kate interior

Posted By: Vince Noel <mailto:vincent.noel2@gte.net?subject=B5N Kate interior> Date: Wednesday, 4 April 2001, at 4:44 p.m.

What would the accurate interior color for B5N2 Kates (for the markings in the Hasegawa kit) be. Would it be the puke green color Hasegawa recommends in all their Japanese aircraft kits,the yellow-tan like the Aeromaster paint, or something else completely different. Thanks!

Vince

Re: B5N Kate interior

Posted By: Bill Misco <mailto:billmisc59@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N Kate interior> Date: Thursday, 5 April 2001, at 6:56 p.m.

In Response To: B5N Kate interior (Vince Noel)

Hi Vince. In the research section on this website there is a formula for mixing the Nakajima interior color using Tamiya paints. When I did so, I found the resulting color is almost identical to Model Master RAF Interior Green.

Re: B5N Kate interior

Posted By: Peter Fearis <mailto:Peter@pfearis.freeserve.co.uk?subject=Re: B5N Kate interior> Date: Thursday, 5 April 2001, at 5:39 a.m.

In Response To: B5N Kate interior (Vince Noel)

Hi Vince I would recommend the Aeromaster Nakajima interior green colour, with a wash to give it that worked in appearance.
HTH. Peter

Re: B5N Kate interior

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <mailto:pchalmers@carolina.rr.com?subject=Re: B5N Kate interior> Date: Thursday, 5 April 2001, at 7:50 a.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N Kate interior (Peter Fearis)

Peter;
The Aeromaster is OOP ( But still sometimes to be found )
Floquil / PollyScale has 3 identical colors, as follows:
(1) Polly Scale Rail 414366 " Weyerhauser Green " acrylic.
still in production and available at good railroad hobby suppliers.
(2) Polly Scale Military 505368 " Warpac Gray Green ( ~34258) acrylic.
still to be found.
(3) Floquil Clasic Military 303369 " Warpac Gray Green FS34258" enamel.
OOP, but a "not too popular" item so may still be available - my local shop had 3 bottles yesterday.
All colors are identical to the AM color - F/PS often used the same pigment formula for "close" colors - including the AM Nakajima color which they manufactured for AM.
Good hunting !

B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Tuesday, 27 February 2001, at 4:54 p.m.

Question:

Was the early version of the Kate - the B5N1 - used as part of the strike force at Pearl Harbor? I believe the answer is yes but... If so..any ideas as to how many and on board which carriers?

How long did the B5N1's stay as first line equipment of carrier divisions 1, 2 and 5?

Chuck Nimsk

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Phil <mailto:Phil_Graf@baylor.edu?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Tuesday, 27 February 2001, at 7:36 p.m.

In Response To: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's? (Chuck Nimsk)

From my understanding, those in charge of the PH operation wanted the most modern a/c involved, and also, the 1's aren't fast enough to keep up with the 2's. Because of these two factors, only B5N2s were used over PH. However, if I remember correctly, there were some on the carriers of the main body of the Midway invasion force (not the ones that were sunk). I don't think any were actually used in that operation either, but I could be wrong. If the USN had persued the rest of the Japanese fleet, they would have seen action, though.

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Tuesday, 27 February 2001, at 9:12 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's? (Phil)

Thanks Phil! Thanks David!

That is what I was wondering, given the differences in cruising speed and max speed, especially as there was close to a three thousand foot altitude difference between optimal altitude for max speed.

The reason I was wondering is this...I have a very old - about 1960 picture book about the History of the United States Navy, edited by Martin Caiden. In that work (which was a pride and joy when I was a child) there is a picture of a B5N1, torpedo equipped, with curiously the fuselage national insignia with the large square white surround, taking off from a carrier with a large island structure to starboard captioned Pearl Harbor. And I know captions often are to be looked at with some degree of mistrust, but to me that picture has always stuck in my mind and is one of the reasons that I really like the "looks" of the B5N. Even if it is "misproportioned" in the relation between the size of the wing and the fuselage..it still looks like a sleek, graceful machine to my eye.

Thanks for the information once again.

Chuck

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 8:52 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (David_Aiken)

Aloha Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David

You write, "The May 1942 filming of a training unit's B5N1s on Akagi was for the movie "Hawai Marei Oki Kaisen" (Hawaii/Malay Sea Battle). It was first shown on Dec 7, 1942. Yes, the landings/takeoffs was probably of use to the training squadron."

Also please refer to another frame from the same film, as pictured on page 164 "East Wind Rain," by Stan COHEN, in "Zero!," by Martin CAIDIN, which shows a B5N1 Kate [K-315] with a white square background to the fuselage hinomaru.

Hiroyuki TAKEUCHI posted the following information on the IJN Aircraft Board on 2 July 2000:

"An inter-service notice dated October 6, 1942 is sited (in Model Art No.565), which specifies that; 1) Camouflaged a/c's should paint hinomaru in white rectangles..."

Also, Tatsuhiro HIGUCHI posted on the IJA Message Board, 20 January 2001:

"A document existed IJA and IJN central agreement about friend discerment of warplanes dated 21 Aug 1942.

1. Aircraft with camouflage paint: Hinomaru on side fuselage on white square( or more 75mm from Hinomaru edge ) or Hinomaru with white border(75mm )."

In either case, August or October 1942, the orders for the application of a white square were given after May 1942.

How is it possible that these Kates had a white square background to the fuselage hinomaru in May?

Is it possible that the movie, "Hawai Marei Oki Kaisen," was filmed later than May and that the deck of the AKAGI seen in the film was actually a movie prop?

TIA

Jim Lansdale

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 7:34 a.m.

In Response To: (Chuck Nimsk)

Chuck

There are a few photos of a torpedo equipped B5N1 taking off from a carrier. In either "East Wind Rain" or Model Art #573, the caption states this is a photo of a training mission in 1942.

I have seen the one with the bandage marks in other books.

HTH

Grant

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: David_Aiken <>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 8:28 a.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's? (Grant Goodale)

Hi Grant, et al,
The May 1942 filming of a training unit's B5N1s on Akagi was for the movie "Hawai Marei Oki Kaisen" (Hawaii/Malay Sea Battle). It was first shown on Dec 7, 1942. Yes, the landings/takeoffs was probably of use to the training squadron.

Cheers,
David

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 8:58 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (James F. Lansdale)

Aloha Mr Lansdale,
The last visit to Japan for Akagi was May 1942.

Cheers,
David Aiken

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie *PIC*>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 9:24 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (David_Aiken)

Thank you for your response Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David.

I would imagine that AKAGI and crew were in some port in May preparing for the attack on Midway and not have the time to serve as a movie backdrop for a Japanese "John FORD!"

And, you did not address the question.

Can you or anyone else explain the presence of the white square background to the fuselage hinomaru of the B5N1 in question (see below) when the practice was not promulgated until after the AKAGI was at the bottom of the sea?

Any help by one of our board members would be sincerely appreciated in order to solve this mystery!

TIA

Jim Lansdale

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: James Holloway <mailto:fholl46282@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2001, at 2:55 a.m.

In Response To: (James F. Lansdale)

Sirs, I have seen most of rhe footage of the takeoff that these stills have come from, and the carrier looks far less convincing in the sequence than the still suggests. It was a full size mockup. They later show the Kate attacking a target with superimposed tracers flying past. Sincerely, James Holloway

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 9:48 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Good questions. I have no answers. However..just a couple of postulates so to speak......

Is that the Akagi in the picture? I've been comparing that photograph and pictures of the Akagi's island from Pearl Harbor: The Original Photographs and..I'm not sure. It sure looks like a searchlight on the top of the island in the picture you posted and that isn't there on the Akagi during the Pearl Harbor time frame. Doesn't mean it wasn't added later of course...but Akagi was kept pretty busy and had little time for refit. Since the tail code of the B5N1 looks to be in the proper order I doubt the picture frame has been reversed so..it has to be to port. That leaves Hiryu. Both Soryu and Hiryu were delayed for a short time refitting after Pearl Harbor because of their involvement with the capture of Wake Island. Could that be her island? I don't think so but...

Shokaku was in home waters for a while after the Coral Sea battle....or maybe Kaga. She was refitting in April of 1942 due to underwater damage to her hull from striking a reef. But her island is to starboard as is Shokaku leading back to the possibility of the frame being reversed. That leads back to Akagi in May as the site. While it is hard to believe that a film crew would have been granted permission to film at that time, militaristic regimes often do strange things for the sake of propaganda. Look at the films being made in Germany in late 1944 and early 1945 requiring lots of extras...from the Army.

As to white bandage insignia....how about this as an idea.
The film being made was, I assume for home audiences but also for the newly acquired peoples of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. I'm not sure how many of the inhabitants would have known a Japanese insignia on an aircraft but by that time they sure would have known the Japanese National Flag. Maybe, for the film, that had something to do with it.

If I had to guess..usually someone has to try out new ideas as to changes in national insignia. Maybe this was a test aircraft for the forth coming changes?

I'm really curious as to what eventually turns up as the correct answers. I make no pretense that any of the above ideas are remotely correct but I just thought I would throw them out there and see what happens.

Chuck

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2001, at 5:28 a.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (Chuck Nimsk)

Thank you for your insight and feed-back Chuck.

Also note that other stills ("outtakes") from this same film show yellow l/e IFF wing markings.

We know these did not come into use until well after May 1942.

FWIW

Jim Lansdale

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2001, at 6:38 a.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (James F. Lansdale)

Thank you for your gracious reply.

In my view I doubt any carrier was actually used in the film. It looks more than likely that the scenes were staged with a mockup, probably in the autumn of 1942 using aircraft that were available easily..meaning B5N1's among others. And yes they do have the yellow ID markings.

That leads to another question. In the book "That Gallant Ship: USS Yorktown CV-5" by Robert Cressman, on page 110, there is a picture of a torpedo carrying Kanko purportedly taken on the morning of May 8, 1942. That aircraft definitely has a lighter coloration in the area that the yellow ID bands were later placed. I'm assuming that it's an optical illusion, or perhaps the outer wing panels had been freshly repainted or some such thing like that. Still..it is there. Can't read the tail code other than it has a single white band at the base of the vertical stabilizer. Wish I had a scanner so I could send the picture. (There's also a picture of a Type 99 code EII-206 also supposedly taken on May 8th.)

Chuck

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Barry Priestly <mailto:berry@operamail.com?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 2001, at 2:07 a.m.

In Response To (Chuck Nimsk)

These are sound reasons to use the newer plane if you have enough of them, but if you haven't..."German, Italian and Japanese Fighters of World War 11" (Bill Gunston, 1980, published by Salamander Books) states ''By 1940 some B5N were converted to B5N1-K trainers, but 103 bombed at Pearl Harbour. In the same attack 40 of the new B5N2 bombers took part, at least half finding their mark." Please don't blame me if this is wrong, but I do note that the Sakae 21 engined Zero didn't go into production until June 1942. Anybody know for absolute certain?

Cheers,
Barry

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Tuesday, 27 February 2001, at 7:59 p.m.

In Response To: (Phil)

Hi Chuck,
Phil is correct. B5N1 with its 9 cylinders was too slow to maintain formation without using more fuel. The same reason B-17s and B-24s were not in the same units in the 8th AF.

Cheers,
David

Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?

Posted By: Jim Eyerdom <mailto:jheyerdom@aol.com?subject=Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's?>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2001, at 10:08 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 at Pearl Harbor as well as B5N2's? (Barry Priestly)

Barry,

This incorrect information also appears nearly verbatim in "Combat Aircraft of the World" (Putnam 1969). (Perhaps the Gunston book's information source?) It mentions that 103 B5N1's were bomb-carrying, and the 40 B5N2's carried torpedos. The next paragraph also mentions that Kates were involved in the sinking of the Wasp too, so some facts were obviously amiss here. However, on the whole this big old 650-page well-illustrated book did have a pretty decent coverage on a wide range of Japanese aircraft.

Jim

Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie

Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <mailto:Tennkats@hotmail.com?subject=Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2001, at 10:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: B5N1 on Akagi used for movie (James Holloway)

Hi, gentlemen.

I agree with Mr. Holloway. Apparently Toho Film built LOTS of miniatures and sets for this movie including a 1/400 scale Pearl Harbor set(the whole harbor with ships and all). I won't be surprized if they built a full size mock up of the bridge of Akagi. This will explain the question, how B5N1 with post-May 1942 markings can appear on Akagi that was sunk in June 1942.

Tennessee

Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match>
Date: Friday, 16 March 2001, at 4:11 p.m.

Hi everyone,

Here is a mix to match the best preserved area of gray-green found on an artifact from the B5N2 which crashed at the Pearl Harbor Navy Hospital on Dec. 7, 1941. It was an aircraft of the Kaga torpedo unit coded AII-35?. The last digit can be 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 or 0. Using Testor's Model Master Enamels mix:

40 parts Faded Olive Drab # 2051
28 parts Armor Sand FS 30277 # 1704
26 parts White FS 37875 #1768
1 part Black Chrome Trim # 2735
Cover with a gloss acrylic clearcoat.

This will give you the full scale color. Samples of the same paint from parts of this aircraft previously overpainted with dark green have a much more tan appearance, similar to FS *6350.
The color match was made under a clear sky at 11:30 AM and verified by Nimitz curators Elizabeth Martindale and Jefferson Spillman. Happy modeling!

Greg

Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2001, at 12:42 p.m.

In Response To: (Chuck Nimsk)

Hi Chuck,

You are correct. Artifacts show that the plane was painted over all with the glossy gray-green. It was oversprayed on upper surfaces with a matt dark green that varies in thickness allowing the gray-green to partially show through at many places. The dark green seems to have been sprayed on the glossy undercoat without any surface preparation so it began to chip away quickly, revealing the undercoat. There is no red primer coat beneath the gray-green. Check out my scans in the research section of the j-aircraft home page. David Aiken proposes that some Kaga Kates had brown tails.

Cheers!

Greg

Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match

Posted By: Ben Brown <mailto:bebrown1@msn.com?subject=Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match>
Date: Sunday, 18 March 2001, at 4:56 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match (Greg Springer)

Were the hinomarus masked over when the green was sprayed or did the painters just try to avoid them as on the A6M3s in the Solomons? I can't tell in the photos if there is a sharp edge between the red and green or a "halo effect" caused by spraying up to but not over the hinomaru. Thanks!

Ben Brown

Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match>
Date: Sunday, 18 March 2001, at 10:48 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match (Ben Brown)

Hi Ben,

The hinomaru on the underside of the wing was expertly masked with an overlap of about 1 mm of the gray-green onto the red. The only piece from the upper surface with red on it is from an unknown location. It could be part of a wing or a fuselage hinomaru or a fuselage stripe. I tend to think it's from the right wing because most of the rest of the plane burned. Either way it was masked and some of the adhesive from the mask can be seen with a microscope. HTH!

Cheers!

Greg

Re: All Kaga KATEs

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: All Kaga KATEs>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2001, at 1:50 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Hospital Kate Gray-Green Match (Greg Springer)

Aloha All,
H. Yoshimura suggested that ALL Kaga Kates had brown tails having viewed every Kaga Kate photo, circa 1941, had the brown tail.

HTH,
David

Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales!>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2001, at 6:09 p.m.

In Response To: Re: All Kaga KATEs (David_Aiken)

Excuse me Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David

You wrote, "H. Yoshimura suggested that ALL Kaga Kates had brown tails having viewed every Kaga Kate photo, circa 1941, had the brown tail."

However, I must ask again. How is one (YOSHIMURA or you) able to "see" a brown color in a black and white photograph?

I truly would like to understand the analytical process by which anyone can "see" color in a monochromatic photo.

For example, John STERLING has a fuselage side from a Nakajima built A6M2 Zero. The hinomaru is green outlined white. Yet, in a monochrome photo it would be interpreted as "red" because we all expect to "see" a red hinomaru.

TIA

Jim Lansdale

Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales!

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales!>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2001, at 8:47 p.m.

In Response To: Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales! (James F. Lansdale)

Aloha All,
There must be a grassy knoll hypothesist in every situation...

For all the skeptics that say brown tales, there must be one to say "yes, there was" brown tails...

The photo of AII-316 is great evidence, I just wish I could print it... look how long I had to sit on the SCALE AVIATION #18 VAL info...

Cheers,
David Aiken

Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales! *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales! *PIC*>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2001, at 11:05 p.m.

In Response To: Re: All Kaga KATEs: Brown Tales! (David_Aiken)

Aloha Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David

You write, "The photo of AII-316 is great evidence, I just wish I could print it..."

Me too!!!

I suppose the photo is in color. When you print it, it will enable us to lay all these troublesome questions about P.H. Kates and their brown derrieres aside and send those nasty "grassy knoll hypothesists" scurrying underground! (;>)

I am looking forward to your publication. It will have been worth waiting for.

I just got my copy of "Scale Aviation, Vol.18." The P.H. Val models were truly incredible! Particularly the yellow one with the red spots (see below). I have never seen such colorful birds. You did an outstanding job on revealing the colors of the lead aircraft at P.H. Their colors certainly rival the great Baron's mighty Flying Circus.

Were the Kates and Zeros belonging to the formation leaders equally colorfull? If not, why only the Vals? The USAAF did not do this until late in the war with the B-24 and B-17 formations flying out of England.

Thank you for your feedback.

Jim Lansdale

Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate? *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate? *PIC*>
Date: Sunday, 18 March 2001, at 6:11 a.m.

In Response To: (Larry Bishop)

Larry

You ask, "In regards to Scale Aviation 18, are the colors of these aircraft (Vals) accurate?"

Your question is better asked of Shinjuwan Sakusen Sensei David AIKEN who collaborated with the author, Masaru ASANO. According to AIKEN and ASANO:

1) "Egusa's machine ([BI-231]) was dubbed Akatora or red tiger. First-hand accounts by the crew confirm (sic) Akatora was splashed red, and looked red all over (at) a distance."

2) "Nakagawa told that his machine ([BII-213]) had green lines on the fuselage, but not on the wing."

3) "A crew member says Takahashi's machine ([EI-238]) was like Doraneko, or wildcat, suggesting overall light brown scheme. This orange rendition is speculative."

All three Val models are painted a light gray color similar to the Val relic color Sensei David has posted here on several occasions.

Analysis: All three captions are, apparently based on eye witness accounts years after the events. My take on this, barring correlative photographic evidence or contemporary written descriptions, follows:

A) Regarding the EGUSA Val [BI-231] being described as "splashed red, and looked red all over (at) a distance:"

This could refer to extensive use of red on the fuselage and or tail, but not necessarily spotted like a leopard as rendered on this model. I also fail to understand a base coat of yellow paint. One observer was quoted on this MB as saying that this Val was in dark green livery with red and yellow stripes (a la the NOHARA san rendering ?).

B) Regarding the NAKAGAWA Val [BII-213] for which he allegedly described as having "green lines on the fuselage:"

I distinctly recall Tennessee KATSUTA saying on this MB that the kanji for blue and green is troublesome in translations. That a green light could be described blue (or vice versa?). I am by no means a Japanese linguist versed in its nuances of meaning, but "could" NAKAGAWA san have been referring to the "blue" HIRYU stripes on the fuselage when he wrote this and not "green"?

C) Regarding the TAKAHASHI Val [EI-238]:

The color described here could easily match the color of the Val dive-brake assembly recovered at Pearl Harbor (see below). The color of this relic is very close to the color of I3 (a close match to FS-16350/16160) and appears to be a standard Val color as applied by Aichi following the all-over aluminum surface scheme used on the China ops Vals.

I think we need more clarification and/or evidence before one may say these schemes are accurate as modeled. They ARE excellently rendered models and do their builders' proud!

The Sensei David AIKEN/ASANO-san collaboration is provocative and has certainly provided us with excellent food for thought regarding a very interesting subject.

Their Scale Aviation article is commendable and will certainly stimulate more colorful Vals being present at Nats!

FWIW

Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate?

Posted By: Ryutaro Nambu <mailto:Dadaryu@aol.com?subject=Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate?>
Date: Monday, 19 March 2001, at 5:44 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate? *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

As the writer of those English captions for Scale Aviation #18, I must be responsible for sorting things out here.

The conspicuous colors of lead D3As are modeler's rendition based on the research by Mr. Asano. In other words, the modeler's speculation played some part in finishing those models. Unfortunately, in the Japanese text, the modeler made no direct quotes from Mr. Asano's research works.

1) BI-231

The overall red scheme of Akatora was based on the interviews with more than one airmen saw that machine on the Pearl Harbor mission. Mr. Asano interviewed them, and got first-hand accounts. True, memory fades and changes over more than 50 years. But we have a strong support, though not mentioned in the Scale Aviation article. In his collaboration with Masatake OKUMIYA, Mitsuo FUCHIDA wrote in "Midway" ...

QUOTE

Presently, at 04:24, I received the radio message of attack order issued by Lt Cdr Shimazaki, the commander of the second wave air-raid force. Shortly after that, I saw the top cover fighters of the second wave approaching. Following them were the dive bomber force led by Lt Cdr Egusa, flying over the mountain from the east coast. Lt Cdr Egusa's machine was painted in overall red as the lead aircraft, and distinct even seen from a distance. A bright red wild horse was leading the flight; his aggressive look made me smile.

---Section 1 December 8th, Chapter 2 Nagumo fleet. [This is my provisional translation from the original Japanese text. You may find different words in your English version.]

UNQUOTE

Fuchida wrote Midway in 1951, referring to many records he kept, with fresh memories of the war. So I think his comment is credible, and it is safe to conclude that Egusa's machine was at least painted in bright red all over. The orange mottle is the modeler's speculation.

2) BII-213

About the possibility of blue mistaken for green, sometimes it happens, but not this time. The word "ao" as in "aotake" is equivocal. Literally it means blue, but often used in the context implying green. The word that Nagakawa used was "midori", not "ao". Unlike "ao", midori always means green, and is never used to imply blue. Blue can mean green, but not vice versa. As long as Nagawa said "midori", it WAS green.

3) EI-238

Very little was explained about this "Doraneko" machine in the Scale Aviation article. Whether it was painted in brown, tan, or orange is unclear.

So, the conclusion is, the red one is almost sure, the green is green and not blue, but the orange one is a big questionmark. I'm glad to see the article that I helped started many discussions like this. Thank you all.

Ryutaro Nambu

Re: EGUSA Val Colors: Japanese/English Versions!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: EGUSA Val Colors: Japanese/English Versions!>
Date: Monday, 19 March 2001, at 9:44 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Scale Aviation 18: Accurate? (Ryutaro Nambu)

Ryu

You wrote that the Japanese version of "Midway" contained a quote by FUCHIDA stating,

"Presently, at 04:24, I received the radio message of attack order issued by Lt Cdr Shimazaki, the commander of the second wave air-raid force. Shortly after that, I saw the top cover fighters of the second wave approaching. Following them were the dive bomber force led by Lt Cdr Egusa, flying over the mountain from the east coast. Lt Cdr Egusa's machine was painted in overall red as the lead aircraft, and distinct even seen from a distance. A bright red wild horse was leading the flight; his aggressive look made me smile."

The English version simply states:

"The dive bomber group, led by Lieutenant Commander Egusa, SORYU's flight commander, consisted of 80 Type-90 [sic] bombers ('Vals'), armed with 250-kilogram bombs, and its original assignment had been to attack the enemy carriers."

Obviously, the Japanese version is more colorful!

Thank you for the translation.

Jim Lansdale

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