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Nakajima Ki-84 Threads Part 2
Topics:
Ki-84 supplemental prototypes
Ki.84 photo in Osprey
'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
Hayate walkaround now online
Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4)
*PIC*
Ki-84 prop question
Ki-84
Light Brown Question
Ki-84
performance data
Correct
or accurate?
Ki
84 Frank
57th
Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (New)
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?)
*PIC* (New)
71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
(New)
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@qwest.net>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 9:10 p.m.
In Response To: Ki84 increase prototype (Nelson R. S. Rapello)
You are correct that this aircraft carries the ventral rack for a drop
tank. This being the case it would not have had wing mounted drop tanks unless
later modified.
Page 57 of Aero Detail #24 shows a photo of this aircraft and the
caption (in English) identifies it as production number 932, a second batch
supplemental prototype.
The tricky part of identifying the supplemental prototypes is that the
smaller detail items had practically no consistency. They had different
headrests, engine exhaust layouts, main wheel hubs, wing or fuselage mounted
drop tank racks, etc. Without seeing a clear image of the landing gear doors it
is not possible to say for sure what type of gear mechanisms this aircraft had.
Correction...
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@qwest.net>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 9:14 p.m.
In Response To: Ki-84 supplemental prototypes (Dan Salamone)
Looking at a photo of prototype #102 on page 54 of Aero Detail #24, this
aircraft has both the ventral rack as well as the wing mounts for drop tanks
and bombs.
Case in point that these prototypes had many variations in
equipment.....
Posted By:
Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 31 January 2002, at 3:43 p.m.
This is for
Henry Sakaida, author of Osprey #13 'Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45'.
Your book
has a b/w photo at the top of page 23 showing a line up of at least five Franks
in the back ground, behind a Manchoukuo Air Force Nate and bipe trainer. The
Franks are in a dark color on their upper surfaces with white wing tips.
Markings on their tails seem to be like those of the 104th Sentai with a
colored upper fin tip and horizontal striping on some rudders.
A b/w photo
of a natural metal finish 104th Sentai Frank is at the top of page 22. It has a
dark (red?) fin tip. Looking closely I believe the main wing tip is also dark
(red?).
There was a
recent posting on the Want Ads page by D. Pluth regarding availability of
Create 301 decals for 104th Sentai Franks. Your were credited as being in
contact with the researcher in Japan who provided information for the new Frank
decal sheet.
Can you make
the following inquiries of your collaborator in Japan?
1. Does the
photo on top of page 23 show HQ section Franks of the 104th Sentai? Does your
contact have an idea how many planes were normally assigned to the HQ flights?
2. Were
104th Sentai Franks generally marked with the chutai color on the wingtips as
on the fin tips? The Create 301 decal data sheet assigns white for HQ, yellow
for 1st Chutai, red for 2nd Chutai and blue for 3rd Chutai.
Re:
Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
Posted By:
Henry Sakaida
Date:
Friday, 1 February 2002, at 8:09 a.m.
In Response
To: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45' (Ken Glass)
I will
contact Mr. Osuo about your questions and when I hear from him, I will post it
here.
Re:
Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
Posted By:
Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date:
Saturday, 9 February 2002, at 4:11 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45' (Henry Sakaida)
I ordered
the Create 301 decal sheets #48-CR-01 Shiden-Kai 343 Ku and #48-CR-02 Ki84-Kou
104 Sentai after seeing Dave Pluth's posting on the Want Ads portion of this
site. I received them by airmail within 14 days, secure in a card board container.
Both decals are printed by Microscale with a 2001 copyright. The color data
sheets provided are the same as shown in the posting on the Want Ads site.
Overall the presentation is similar to AeroMaster-Eaglestrike decals and makes
a favorable impression.
Included in
the Ki84 package is a 4" x 6" size scrap of paper. It is a b/w xerox
copy of three partial view sketches of a Frank. All three views are repeated
from the main color data sheet but two have been slightly altered. They appear
to concern the same plane subject of the decal sheet from the HQ flight with
white spinner, tail fin tip AND now with white wing tips, all shown in the same
plan view. Small arrows on the sketch seem to indicate the white marking
applied to both upper and lower surfaces of the wing tips. All script on the
xerox scrap is in Japanese. I can't determine if the intent of the sketches is
to indicate the same marking treatment for the wingtips of the three component
chutais of this sentai.
The white
wing tip detail is not shown on the main color profile data sheet that comes in
the package. I presume that marking detail was determined after the color art
work was done. Can you determine from your collaborator in Japan if the other
chutai wing tips were similarly marked in their respective colors?
Posted By:
Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date:
Tuesday, 22 January 2002, at 3:43 p.m.
The ki84
Hayate (Frank) walkaround in now online. It seemed to work well when I tested
it, so if there are any problem drop me an email. I must apologize for the
pictures occasionally being grainy and low in contrast. Many pictures were dark
and needed a lot of image processing to get to be what they are. These images
are also large (1600x1200 pixels). I chose to display them full size to
preserve the maximum detail and information. There are several walkaround sites
out there, but the info they have on submitting pictures seems to frown upon
large images. Being that these pictures are large, I think they will nicely
complement the Aero-Detail book. The book has greater coverage of the cockpit
and engine areas, and they could climb all over the plane, but thier photos are
occasionally small. The 80 or so photos cover just about every thing I could
get a shot of, from most any agle I could get the camera to. The museum also
has a T-6 Texan parked out front. I thought it was cute and took a few shots,
which are also posted.
Visiting the
museum is a sobering and somber experience (anyone who has visited the Arizona
Memorial knows the feeling). Photography is prohibited in the museum. I think
this is because they don't want people carrying on and taking snap shots like
it's Disney Land. To get these pictures, I had to ask for special permission
from the manager (through my girlfriend since I don't speak Japanese...these
shots are as much due to her efforts as to mine) to take pictures, and he let
me near closing time when most other visitors had left. I felt it would have been
impolite and inconsiderate to ask for too many favors, so I only asked to take
pictures of the Hayate. They also have restored ki61-II Hien and a wrecked and
corroded Zero on display. Photos of Zeros are abundant. I wasn't as personally
interested in the Hien, it's paint was obviously inaccurate, and parts of the
plane (canopy, turbocharger intake, drop tank, bomb) were obviously replicas. I
am please to have had the chance to not only examine the only example for 4
hours, but to also take as many pictures as I wanted. I am also please to share
these pictures with the public, so that anyone can benefit from this
experience.
And, by the
way, the URL is:
www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
Posted By:
Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date:
Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 3:25 p.m.
I'm
wondering if I should leave the "electrical box" on the left side of
the cockpit floor off the model. Aero Detail states it's not original
equipment, and sure enough on the pics of the cockpit the Mk III radio is
missing. So this *could* be a U.S, radio?
In the FAQ I
found a posting of Dan Salamone from 1999 in which he states that there's a box
in the cockpit that doesn't belong there. I take it he meant this box. I seem
to remember that there was someone els who wrote that it's open to debate if
that box didn't belong there or not. I can't find that posting back, however.
Could you please
give your opinion on this?
Ki-84
boxes
Posted By:
Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date:
Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 8:16 p.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit (Erik Bosch)
That old
post was a goof of mine- the electrical box on the right side floor is OK, the
Aero Detail photo on page 65 shows a post-capture radio box high on the right
side of the cockpit. I don't have the Ki-84 kit handy right now to see if that
detail was molded in or not.
Slight
correction...
Posted By:
Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date:
Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 3:27 p.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit (Erik Bosch)
The box is
situated on the RIGHT side of the cockpit floor
Posted By:
Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date:
Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 6:19 a.m.
I have the
Hasegawa limited release with 47 Sentai markings:
1.Where can
I find pictures on the Internet of a/c of this unit?
2.I believe
I read these aircraft were deliverd in NMF to the units and camo'd there. So
these a/c would show heavy chipping on the green, the grey, the white
"flags" on the wing and the unit markings?
3.As I read
on this site that the Hinomarus (and the leading edge stripe) were painted at
the factory, these would have been primered and therefore wouldn't chip (as
much)?
4. What
technique can you recommend for the paint chipping?
Quite some
questions..... Thanks for your time and effort!
Re:
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
Posted By:
Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date:
Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 9:00 a.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Erik Bosch)
Click on the
below link, and scroll down to the Ki-84. There are 3 pages of photos, some of
them being repeated at least once.
Link:
http://www.ijaafpics.com
Re:
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
Posted By:
Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date:
Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 8:57 a.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Erik Bosch)
Below is a
link to an article of a 47th Sentai Hayate I built a few years back. It has
some tips on one (of many) paint chipping techniques.
IIRC, the
Ki-84 was painted at the factory as there were a few schemes seen, one being a
dark green over grey/green-grey and another that was brown over a similar
color. I also have FS numbers for these schemes near the end of the article.
Some
aircraft were heavily chipped, and others were not. Probably was purely how
long each aircraft was in service and where they were, etc.
I will also
attach a link to a separate message with a page of photos of actual Hayates. If
you wish to own a nice, low cost reference I suggest Famous Aircraft of the
World #19 as it has many photos and line drawings, etc.
Link:
http://www.kitparade.com/features00/ki84ds_1.htm
Re:
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
Posted By:
Erik <devilsled@earthlink.net>
Date:
Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 3:08 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Dan Salamone)
Re: qustion
#4
Im building
the Ki-84 and tried the following paint chipping technique for the first time.
It worked very well.
Paint a/c
with metallizer. (I used testors).Buff lightly.
Seal with
metallizer sealer.
I used IJA
Green from Tamiya. First time using Acrylic paints and this might have
contributed to the great look.
After
airbrushing, wait 10-15 min. Take some tape and dab the areas you want the
paint to flake off.Wrap tape into tight circle- you want to start with small
sections of tape-its very effective.
Final
sealing done by spraying with Future. Then wash with whatever method you
prefer. This was my first attempt and I am very pleased with the results!
Posted By:
Bennet <demodelbouwer@hotmail.com>
Date:
Tuesday, 25 December 2001, at 11:25 p.m.
I am working
on Hasegawa’s Ki-84. I want to make Corporal Takano’s airplane (Aeromaster
Decals # 48-174, i.e. the a/c with the red “arrow”). Unfortunately the
references I have (Aero Detail, and Schiffer) do not have picture(s) of this
aircraft. Therefore I will appreciate it very much if somebody can help me with
the following questions.
1) Are there
any pictures available of is this specific a/c.
2) Is the
a/c (heavily) weathered?
3) Can
somebody scan the picture(s) and e-mail them to me?
Re:
Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
Posted By:
Martin Ferkl
Date:
Sunday, 30 December 2001, at 2:53 a.m.
In Response
To: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures? (Bennet)
Hayate No.
21 from 57th Shinbu Tai flown by Corp. Takano (Kohno?) is depicted in Model Art
451. You can find some photos of Hayates used by this suicidal unit in this
book.
Re:
Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
Posted By:
John Dillon <john.dillon@wachovia.com>
Date:
Monday, 31 December 2001, at 6:39 a.m.
In Response
To: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures? (Bennet)
There is a
picture of that aircraft in the FAOW on the Ki-84, but it is at a distance that
doesn't reveal any particular detail. There are a series of photos of that unit
(57th Shimbu-Tai) and the other planes show some weathering (a little chipping
and some signs of paint fading) but nothing extreme.
One thing to
note. I believe Aeromaster calls for the plane to be done in black, and there
is a color profile in the FAOW in black as well (probably where Aeromaster got
the idea). Based upon the photos of the other planes in the unit, I doubt very
much whether this plane was actually black. To my eye, it is pretty clear that
the other planes are green or brown--take your pick. I'd go with green since
the majority of Ki-84's seemed to have received that color out of the factory.
Posted By:
Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date:
Sunday, 16 December 2001, at 1:36 a.m.
Awhile ago
Joern Lecksheid posted a photo showing two Hayates belonging to the 64th Sentai
in Burma. Below is a link to that post with text and the photo.
He asked
(and I'm still wondering) if anyone may be able to date the photo, and tell
what Chutai operated these aircraft?
Of note is
that the aircraft to the left is NMF with splotches where the aircraft to the
distant right seems to be camouflaged and have a light colored spinner. Also,
the NMF aircraft has the single exhaust stub of the early supplemental
prototypes but it is very hard to tell if it has the elongated muzzle covers on
the cowl or a centerline drop tank pylon. Very interesting photo and
circumstances!
Editors
note: Picture at http://home.t-online.de/home/joern.leckscheid/Army/64SentaiHayate.jpg
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 7:13 a.m.
4.
"Here's the plane that has taken me the longest time to confirm. It first
appeared in Scale Modeller in the 70's but with a different scheme and the
wrong pilot. Actually the pilot was Lt. Kurai Toshizo, No.1 Chutaicho, No. 1
Operational Training Unit (No.520 Temporary Intercept Sentai). He wore the same
style kill markings on his sleeve.
I'm on to
doing a painting of another plane!
Is there any
in particular you'd like to see?"
Art: (c)
2001 by James Holloway
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-84_1kfr_jh_d.jpg
Re:
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
Posted By:
James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date:
Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 5:21 p.m.
In Response
To: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC* (James F.
Lansdale)
Sirs, my
thanks to Mr. Lansdale for posting these for me, I am very good at posting
those little boxes with the X in them and little else. This Frank took me the
longest to find, I thought I had the scheme since the early 80's and I want to
thank George Elephtheriou and Joel Leckschied for providing final confirmation
and true pilot's name. It has been said in other publications that this plane
had a mottled camoflage, but it seems this unit had an uneven solid topcoat
that was severly weathered and scraped, giving a mottle effect in some places.
Re:
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
Posted By:
Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date:
Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 1:03 p.m.
In Response
To: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC* (James F.
Lansdale)
Great job.
Is this the Ki84 appeared on Superscale's Axis Aces of WWII, I am about the get
the sheet soon though I am certain that kill markings are the same though that
a/c did not have weathering as this one.
What do you
think if I want something very difficult and selfish? How about Kobayashi's
Ki100? (I have two Ki100 kits waiting :))) )
Re:
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
Posted By:
James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date: Sunday,
9 December 2001, at 6:02 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (Deniz Karacay)
Sir, This
plane is another one I have been hunting for years. I was told this by Tokyo
Historian Sakurai Takeda: The one photo that we've seen that shows him standing
in front of the kill marks, the ki100, just out at time was considered top
secret so was not allowed to be photograghed "in combat", so no other
photo of his plane is KNOWN to exist.It does seem to explain why since he seemed
to be so publicity minded that there aren't a lot of photos of this plane
around.
Kobayashi's
Ki100 *PIC*
Posted By:
Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date:
Tuesday, 11 December 2001, at 7:48 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (James Holloway)
Perhaps you
have seen this already but anyway I post it.
From: FAOW
No23 1990-7: Army Type 5 Fighter
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.umr.edu/~dkaracay/koki100.jpg
Re:
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
Posted By:
James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date:
Tuesday, 11 December 2001, at 1:41 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (Deniz Karacay)
I've seen
this plane, too and the markings were copied from Kobayashi's Ki61, to moke it
more colourful. It's since been repainted in an accurate scheme,green over
grey, and the markings of the 5th Sentai, I think.
Posted By:
Erik
Date:
Saturday, 2 February 2002, at 4:53 p.m.
Does anyone
know if the prop blades on the Frank were made of wood or metal? Joe Baugher
did an excellent write up on this aircraft, but no info on the blade material.
I beg the gentelmen of this board for enlightenment!
Re:
Ki-84 prop question
Posted By:
Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date:
Saturday, 2 February 2002, at 11:32 p.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84 prop question (Erik)
When I visited
the plane, it looked like metal to me. I recall that there was a chip taken out
of an edge of one of the blades. The nature of the chip looked like metal, not
wood. I meant to take a photo of this blade, but I seem to have forgotten.
Anyway, take a look.
Link: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
Re:
Ki-84 prop
Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Sunday, 3 February 2002, at 6:11 a.m.
In Response
To: Ki-84 prop question (Erik)
A lengthy
and highly detailed notebook on the Ki 84 was captured at Mabalacat in the P.I.
in 1945. It contains these comments in the propeller section:
"A PE
32 electrical type constant speed propeller is used on this airplane. The
diameter of the propeller is 3.10 m and is a metal, four bladed propeller. Its
weight is approximately 180 kg..."
Posted
By: Christopher Dowsett <mainscreen@optusnet.com.au>
Date:
Saturday, 6 April 2002, at 5:20 p.m.
I
am currently working on the old Tamiya Nakajima Ki-84. I want to model the
light brown aircraft flown by Capt Tadao Ikeda,
from
the 51st Sentai based at Shimodate airfield in Feb 1945. The aircraft
features on Page 55, plate 18 of the Osprey Aviation
Elite
No5 ~ B-29 Hunters of the JAAF by Koji Takaki & Henry Sakaida. I am new
to JAAF aircraft models. My questions are: What colour light
brown
is it and what is the closest in the Gunze range or PMS colours? Is there
any more information/pics about the pilot or this aircraft around?
Re:
Ki-84 Light Brown Question
Posted
By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date:
Sunday, 7 April 2002, at 3:07 p.m.
In
Response To: Ki-84 Light Brown Question (Christopher Dowsett)
Best
bet is to check the Ki-84 FAQS. It is quite comprehensive as far as FS
codes, etc. and timelines on when certain colors (may) have been used. Can't
help though on Gunze matches, or info on the pilot. Hope this helps,
Posted
By: Steve C <contella@wt.net>
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 12:38 p.m.
In
Rene Francillon's book "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" he
says that during the service trials the Ki-84 attained a top speed of 388
mph. I take this to mean that the prototype reached this speed. Also the
prototype aircraft used 1,800 hp engines where as the production aircraft
used 1,900 hp engines Homare [Ha-45] 11, and 12. It would seem logical that
the higher horsepower engined aircraft were faster.
Does
anyone have any other performance data for the Hayate? Specifically tests
performed in Japan during the war. I know that the Clark Field aircraft was
tested in 1946 and attained a higher speed (427 mph) using higher octane
fuel and a higher blower (supercharger) setting.
Also
I have the Meru Mechanic book on the Ki-84 mostly as a pictorial reference
however is it mentioned that the Ki-84 used water injection? None of my
other references mention water injection.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data *PIC*
Posted
By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date:
Tuesday, 23 April 2002, at 6:44 a.m.
In
Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
From
FAOW No 20 Ki84 1971.
Certainly
a match to Allied a/c under 20 000 ft. Unfortunately for Japanese, it was
too little too late.
Editors
note: Picture no longer available.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 2:58 p.m.
In
Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
I
have a copy of a translation of a captured document (hand written notes) of
unknown reliability which indicates two maximum speeds for the Ki 84-1
(Light) and Ki 84-1 (Improved). The two speeds apparently relate to the Ha
45 rating of 2000 hp at 1500 meters and 1800hp at 6000 meters.
Ki
84-1 (Light) 664 kph (=412 mph) and 693 kph (=430 mph)
Ki
84-1 (Improved) 658 kph (=409 mph) and 688 kph (=427 mph).
Fully
equiped wgt of Light = 3576 kg; Improved = 3858 kg
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: JC Butte <fluiddude@aol.com>
Date:
Friday, 19 April 2002, at 2:39 p.m.
In
Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (richard dunn)
The
US conducted post war flight testing of a KI 84 and achieved a top speed of
427 mph at 22,000' (posting from memory). This was in a superbly restored
and maintained aircraft using top grade fuel. I doubt the Japanese were able
to secure such performance under late war conditions. I have seen different
figures for top speed at 20,000' (398 and 408 mph respectively, possibly
reflecting the different engines used in this craft.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Friday, 19 April 2002, at 3:04 p.m.
In
Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (JC Butte)
I
only report what the document says.
During
the war TAIC rated Ki 84's max speed at 422 mph.
There
are many instances when Japanese "official" figures are less than
US tests and observed combat performance.
One
pilot's notes on the Ki 84 recommended always flying at overboost during
combat. You wouldn't do that with an Allied fighter. What does that imply.
I'm
not trying to convince anybody of anything other than this is an area worthy
of inquiry and "received" history or the know "truth" on
such matters may be something less than history or truth.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: Nick Millman
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 1:02 p.m.
In
Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
In
August 1943 the second pre-production example was reported to have achieved
394 mph (643 kph) level speed at 21,800 ft (6,645 m) piloted by Tachikawa
test pilot Funabishi. In diving trials the same aircraft achieved 496 mph
(798 kph).
I
guess this was in "clean" configuration.
In
operations the type suffered from unreliability.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: Steve C <contella@wt.net>
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 1:36 p.m.
In
Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Nick Millman)
Is
there a source for that report? Any additional info would be of great help.
Re:
Ki-84 performance data
Posted
By: Nick Millman
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 3:20 p.m.
In
Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
No,
it comes from the development history of the type in Green & Swanborough,
1977, but unfortunately the original source is not cited.
It
may be of interest to you that the SEAC Weekly Intelligence Summary 39 of
13th August 1944 first mentions the Ki-84, Summary 41 of 27th August 1944
gives tentative performance figures (TIR 338, Page 3) and Summary 49 of 22nd
October 1944 reports, in TIR 390:
"sightings
and combat photographs show that a new type of Jap (sic) fighter reported as
having a 'tremendous speed' is in action in China".
A
7-point description is given, suggesting it is "Frank" but there
is also speculation about Shiden and different points are noted. The report
also mentions a crashed unidentified fighter in China with 2x20mm and
2x12.7mm armament.
Posted
By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date:
Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 4:30 p.m.
In
Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Nick Millman)
No
need to put "(sic)" after "Jap" that's what they were
called.
Somebody
objected to "in-line engine". Maybe they were correct technically
but they were historically inaccurate. "V" engines were routinely
called in-line engines during ww2.
We've
also discussed "F" and "FR" for the abbreviation for
Hiko Sentai. The "F" is correct (and used in post-war Japanese
official histories) but "FR" (from an old standard) was far more
common in actual ww2 documents.
So,
do you want to be correct or accurate? Not directed at you, Nick. Just a
rheotorical question?
Posted
By: sam crane <nettwerk@prodigy.net>
Date:
Wednesday, 8 May 2002, at 6:37 p.m.
I
am building a Hasagawa Ki84 Frank and just looking for some general info.
Was the fighter pressurized ?
Why
does the central part of the canopy have a lip that hangs over the edge of
the fuselage ? Do the folwer flaps fit tight against the upper wing when
they are in the closed position, or do they droop a little ? Do the wing
cannons fit snuggly against the hole in the wing, or is there space ?
Re:
Ki 84 Frank
Posted
By: Mike Aldrich <VaYank5150@aol.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 8 May 2002, at 9:36 p.m.
In
Response To: Ki 84 Frank (sam crane)
I
found this webpage while surfing at some point. Excellent pictures of a
rebuilt Ki-84. Maybe the pictures might answer some of your questions?
Editors
note: Link to http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
Ki
84 Frank
Posted
By: Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date:
Thursday, 9 May 2002, at 5:02 a.m.
In
Response To: Ki 84 Frank (sam crane)
Yes,
I think that's a very good site too :^). I was very fortunate to be able to
take those pictures, and to be able to study the plane for 4 hours. To your
questions:
1)
I don't think the cockpit was pressurized. There is quite a large gap
between the center canopy part and the aft part (which surprised my by being
so small).
2)
There didn't seem to much of a gap at all between the flaps and the upper
wing, quite a good fit.
3)
The cannons on the Hayate are fakes (just metal tubes really), and looked to
small to me. I think Hayates had a gap between the wing and the cannon, but
not this big. Overall, the Hayate is quite authentic, which is fortunate as
it's the only one left.
Re:
Ki 84 Frank
Posted
By: sam crane <nettwerk@prodigy.net>
Date:
Thursday, 9 May 2002, at 10:21 a.m.
In
Response To: Ki 84 Frank (Mike Connelley)
Great
pictures ! Very helpful. The photo (Ki84.220) from the rear of the aircraft
shows the canopy lip over the fuselage, and I can see the gap between the
center and rear canopy. I agree, I cant imagine the cockpit being
pressurized, but I thought they used this fighter to go after high altitude
bombers. I wasn't sure if the Hasagawa model was in error. Also, the model
has a space between the cannons and the wings, this must be accurate also. I
noticed that with the fowler flaps closed, the tiny raised triangular
"pins" recede into the wing. The flaps fit so well, you can barely
see them. However, the bolts going through the flaps appear to be keeping
the flaps level. Thanks guys !
looking
for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat.
Posted
By: Kent <kinalk@earthlink.net>
Date:
Saturday, 22 June 2002, at 7:14 a.m.
Can
anybody offer help??
Re:
looking for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat.
Posted
By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Saturday, 22 June 2002, at 9:26 a.m.
In
Response To: looking for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat. (Kent)
The
best shots of this area can be found in MA #493 (Nakajima Army Type 4
Fighter "Hayata" Ki 84). This is a great publication if you're
interested in the more technical aspects of the Ki-84. It mostly has photos
of the one remaining Frank and technical drawings. Although, for much less
money, I believe FAOW #19 (Army Type 4 Fighter "Hayata") is a
better general reference for the modeler, and shows more of the Ki-84 in
historic use. The FOAW only has one shot, the same one that appears in the
MA.
I'll
send you a few pics.
Posted By:
joe taylor <joe.taylor@bellhowell.com>
Date:
Thursday, 19 September 2002, at 7:11 a.m.
Are the
Gunze H62 green for top and H60 for bottom appropriate for late war home
defense units?
Can you
suggest better matches?
Any help
would be appreciated. FAQ on this was not clear
Re:
Ki 84 color help
Posted By:
Ramesh Gill <ramesh_gill@hotmail.com>
Date:
Monday, 23 September 2002, at 10:12 a.m.
In Response
To: Ki 84 color help (joe taylor)
Just your
luck...I've just completed an old 1/48 Arii Ki-84 in home defence markings too
(520th Temporary Interception Sq). Generally, Ki-84 greens and greys were
different from those of other aircraft, thus H60 and H62 may not ideal. But be
prepared for some customised mixing if you really want more accurate colors for
Ki-84s.
Using the
old Model Art Ki-84 book's color chips as guide, you get the following paint
mix ratios for Gunze paints:
Upper
Surface Dark Green: H6 - 45% + H7 - 35% + H4 - 20%
Lower Surface
Grey-Green: H1 - 70% + H2 - 15% + H4 - 5% +
H6 - 5% + H7
- 5%
I've not
tried these Gunze mixes, so I can't say how accurately these match the chips.
But I have found the Tamiya mixes that were also provided in that book to be
totally wrong. Instead, I've managed to find my own mix ratios that match these
chips almost perfectly. These are as follows:
Upper Green:
X 9 (18 parts) + X 8 (15 parts) + X 5 (7 parts)
Lower Grey
Green: XF-14 (40 parts) + X 2 (20 parts) +
X 8 (4
parts) + X 9 (1 part)
As for my
latest Ki-84, I decided to try a slighly more aged look and so used 1 part less
green for the upper camo (ie 18:15:6 instead of the 18:15:7). The resulting
tone in a little bit more brown/drab and this is how the green paints actually
tends to age [well, at least for Japanese WWII paints :)]. Plus, it gives a
subtle variation between one Ki-84 kit and another when plaved side by side. HTH.
Posted By:
Ramesh Gill <ramesh_gill@hotmail.com>
Date:
Friday, 6 September 2002, at 5:53 p.m.
Is there any
info available regarding the markings / paint-scheme used on Capt Yukiyoshi
Wakamatsu's Ki-84 during his final days? Can it be safe to assume that he
adapted the same tail and fuselage markings that he had on his camoflaged
Ki-44?
Re:
Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Monday, 9 September 2002, at 2:30 p.m.
In Response
To: Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84 (Ramesh Gill)
As far as I
know no photographs of Wakamatsu's Ki-84 have yet been published. At the time
of his death in December 1944 the 85th was operating a mixed complement of
Ki-44 and Ki-84 aircraft (on 13 November 1944 it had reported an available strength
of 17 Ki-44 and 10 Ki-84)
A colour
photograph taken at Kimpo, Korea, following the surrender confirms that some
Ki-84 aircraft had the unit's "half arrow" tail marking, in this case
white with a matching white spinner and the number "68" on the lower
rudder. The colour scheme is standard for the Ki-84 but the aircraft does not
have the so-called "combat stripe".
Sgt Misao
Okubo's Ki-84 of the 2nd Chutai in the autumn of 1944 has been depicted without
any tail marking except the white character "Ku(ru)". This aircraft,
otherwise in a standard Ki-84 scheme, had a narrow red fuselage stripe, edged
in white, to the rear of the hinomaru. The spinner is depicted as the standard
Ki-84 grey-green - which is unlikely. There are indications that other 85th
Ki-84 aircraft continued to display individual Chinese characters above the
"half arrow".
Posted By:
Wes Stachnick <beckwes@msn.com>
Date:
Friday, 30 August 2002, at 9:48 a.m.
I am in the
process of building the Hasagawa Ki-84 in 1/48th scale and have chosen a color
scheme on Aeromaster sheet 48-174a"Special Attack Squadrons".My
choice is the Hayate flown by Corp.Takano,57th Shibu-Tai,May 1945.This is the
bird with the red and white "rounded arrowhead"on the cowling and the
red and white strip running down the fuselage.The color for uppersurfaces call
for "black"[per Aeromaster],although "a very dark brown was used
by Shinbu-Tai squadrons".I do not have Model-Art no.451 IJAAF Special
Attack Forces to compare photos or color chips.This "black-brown"
does not seem to appear in Model-Art #395 or #329. What is the opinion of this
wise and learned group about this 57th Hayate color? Any suggestions with FS
standard or model paint mixes?Did this color exist at all? Once again ,thanks
to all the terrific people in this wonderful group!
Here's
the brown *PIC*
Posted By:
Pete Chalmers
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 6:05 a.m.
In Response
To: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Wes Stachnick)
Don't know
what color your subject was painted, but here's the late war brown on Ki-44
& Ki-45 in the Phillipines in 1945
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/temp/tojo_1.jpg
Re: Here's
the brown
Posted By:
Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com>
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 8:06 a.m.
In Response
To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
It kind of
looks like an Dark Olive Drab color. Very interesting.
Re:
Here's the brown
Posted By:
Pete Chalmers
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 12:08 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Here's the brown (Dave Pluth)
No way to
FS595 from a photo, but the the green mottles on the Ki-45, the color of the
wash khakis, USMC cap, and skin tones on the Navy officer, and the red and
yellow tones, make me pretty certain that this is in fact the brown found on
some artifacts discussed by Messrs. LANSDALE and OWAKI a few years back, which
JL characterized as " between FS 30118 and FS 20095 ( closer to FS 20095 )
in a post dated 8 JAN 99 to this board, and quite possibly the
"standard" late war brown.
The edges of
the print made I'm sure from a Kodachrome ( Boy, wouldn't we like to see the
rest of those slides !!! ) are distorted to blue, but having worn both the
khakis and the cap ( not togethor ) and spent quite some time in the
Phillipines in 1967-67, the colors look pretty good to me.
The olive
tinge is certainly evident in the highlighted areas, but not in the shadows.
What is also
interesting are the black undersides on the mottled Ki-45 - evident if you
enhance and lighten the photo via Photoshop or PSP7.
Re:
Here's the brown
Posted By:
William Knoth <baronred4@cs.com>
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 7:41 a.m.
In Response
To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
Looks like
it's got green in it!
Re:
Here's the brown
Posted By:
Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 1:33 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Here's the brown (William Knoth)
Check the
FAQs. I remember that a few years ago there was a great debate going on this
site about that photo. If I recall correctly, I don't think that we want to
open that can of worms again.
In my
opinion, this belongs in the same group as the blue Oscars and golden Claudes -
excellent discussion but unable to be proven either way beyond a shadow of
doubt.
And
your point is ?
Posted By:
Pete Chalmers
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 3:22 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Here's the brown (Grant Goodale)
With the
"Blue Oscar" and the "Gold Claude", there are neither good
( or any) photographs nor artifacts.
The brown is
confirmed by artifacts - we can argue about the precise shade in this photo,
but not about the existance of the brown.
Re:
And your point is ?
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 12:21 a.m.
In Response
To: And your point is ? (Pete Chalmers)
only Jim
Lansdale would be able to confirm whether Don Thorpe had a blue artifact
associated with a Ki-100 - or Oscar - or any other type - by date, location and
serial number. I for one would be interested in the provenance of Don's blue
Ki-100.
The blue
scheme, if it existed (and I believe it did) cannot really be compared with the
late war browns - which appear to be mass production factory schemes. I'm sure
I speak for other "blue believers" when I acknowledge these were
rarities and much less likely to survive in artifacts or photographs. There are
however a number of colour photographs which "appear" to show
"blue" JAAF aircraft including a Helen and a Sonia.
Also if you
will forgive a tongue in cheek comment - there seems to have been no shortage
of beautiful blue paint to obscure the hinomaru on these aircraft at this
recently captured airfield! :-)
In the
meantime I'll keep an open mind about the colour(s) of that part of the iceberg
we can't (yet) see!!!
Re:
And your point is ?
Posted By:
Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy <FraudFree947356@aol.com>
Date:
Monday, 2 September 2002, at 10:05 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
I really
don't know what to think of this subject, but I can tell you all this:
My Ki-43
Oscar relic - battered and bruised - shows DEFINITE blue under the mottled
green. It was NOT always this way. It was green, but when I washed the dirt
off, some of the green paint seems to have broken down and left the blue
portion of it. It remains gradual from metal to blue to green, and I witnessed
the change in my own kitchen.
So, knowing
that it would be impossible to mottle blue Aotake first and green precisely
over that, I am all but certain the deep beautiful blue paint remnant was
merely a component of the green paint.
As I recall,
Hiroyuki Takeuchi said wreckage of a Ki-45 in Japan was recently recovered and
found to have a blue mottled finish. I wonder if the age of the paint and so on
may have been behind this blue as was the case with my relic.
Is this to
say this blue paint on the aircraft of the day was all worn-out green paint?
Not necessarily.
Is this to
say blue did not exist? Not necessarily.
Is this to
say we have insufficient data - either way - to make a convincing case about
what was painted vs. what was witnessed? I think so.
If you want
to (accurately) paint your model blue, I can easily imagine a well-worn
formerly green aircraft looking that way based on my relic's paint breaking
down as it has. I could easily imagine a mottled (where the mottles were
quickly sprayed green X marks over a sandy color as from the Hayabusa which my
relic came) scheme with green mottles with blue edges.
As a modeler
at heart, I can't completely accept or reject blue Hayabusas, Lilac Rufes, or
gold Claudes. To me, they are legends based on SOMETHING. We tend to believe the
lilac Rufe legend was actually the Hairyokushoku finish wearing through and
partially revealing the primer. We tend to think the gold Claude was true based
on the claims of eyewitnesses (did ANY eyewitnesses say they were NOT gold?). I
think we should be prepared to believe the blue could have been in existence -
and for many different reasons - not just OOB blue, and until we can KNOW the
paint was BLUE, we can't necessarily swear it did or didn't exist.
Re:
And your point is ?
Posted By:
Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy <FraudFree947356@aol.com>
Date:
Monday, 2 September 2002, at 2:37 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: And your point is ? (Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy)
Oh yes... I
forgot to add to what I previously posted:
As a modeler
at heart, I can't completely accept or reject blue Hayabusas, Lilac Rufes, or
gold Claudes. To me, they are legends based on SOMETHING. We tend to believe
the lilac Rufe legend was actually the Hairyokushoku finish wearing through and
partially revealing the primer. We tend to think the gold Claude was true based
on the claims of eyewitnesses (did ANY eyewitnesses say they were NOT gold?). I
think we should be prepared to believe the blue could have been in existence -
and for many different reasons - not just OOB blue, and until we can KNOW the
paint was BLUE, we can't necessarily swear it did or didn't exist.
I sure am
not trying to stir things up, so let me clarify...
I don't
think we had any lilac Rufes at all, anywhere. I believe it is a legend, based
on something someone saw, that was not properly substantiated or supported.
I am not
sure about gold Claudes, but I see NO evidence PROVING they were NOT gold - and
some questionable evidence stating (but not proving) they were. But at this
point, I am shifting away from the belief I have had in the past of the gold
Claude. I am wondering if it was sort of like those chemically stained windows
that have a sheen that some folks see their favorite idol imprinted in the
reflection - and when one person sees it and proclaims it, others see a
resemblance, and the next thing you know, you have a following.
About blue
Hayabusas and GoShikiSens, I think it's definitely possible, but don't know
whether they were PAINTED blue or faded from green - or if there's a good
answer for sure or not. Sure, blue is neat - but there were more KNOWN schemes
than I can possibly model.
But if you
want to paint a model blue or gold or purple, do it! My opinions are mine, and
they are certainly not worth more than anyone else's. Let's face it - there is
too little proof one way or another for anyone to call the model police and
have you arrested on a 1369 because you didn't have the LATEST book on your
favorite subject.
What color
was the cinder-block wall (or door or floor tile?) in your first-grade
classroom? What color do you suppose it is now (provided it hasn't been
reworked)? If you had an FS-595 then and now, would your readings be the same?
Is it important enough to lose good modeling time over? Just build it. You'll
figure out a color before you mix the paint!
Re:
Kawanishi green...
Posted By:
David Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date:
Monday, 2 September 2002, at 10:35 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: And your point is ? (Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy)
In 1975, I
worked on that Nimitz Museum N1K1 "Kyofu" [Rex]...and one of my
lasting impressions about its color was a blue color which when rubbed with
added 'spit' it turned Kawanishi green.
Digital
Laser Photo Spectrometer Analysis
Posted By:
Pete Chalmers
Date:
Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 6:06 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
Indicates
that the blue was US Insignia Blue, batch 44-2724, from the paint locker of the
USS Suwanee.
Re:
The Point of Don THORPE's Work
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 5:15 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
You wrote,
"only Jim Lansdale would be able to confirm whether Don Thorpe had a blue
artifact associated with a Ki-100 - or Oscar - or any other type - by date,
location and serial number. I for one would be interested in the provenance of
Don's blue Ki-100."
Don THORPE's
brilliance and recognized pioneering efforts, as well as contributions to the
field of Japanese aircraft colors, centered on his systematic analysis of the
Charles DARBY (as well as others') collection/s of artifacts and relics.
To this day,
his color comparisons of those relics to the Munsell standard of colors remain
dead-on! He also obtained a partial, but original set of color chips from the
"Official Japanese Aircraft Color Standards: February 1945". Today,
we have only added to and validated Don's body of knowledge in order to broaden
and strengthened the foundation of his color data base.
Having said
the previous, I must also be candid (as Don has been), without apology, by
stating the following:
During his
research, Don THORPE plowed new furrows, but relied greatly on the research of
others (AKIMOTO-san, HASHIMOTO-san, Dick BUESCHEL, Witold LISS, etc). In the
end, Don was also forced to "borrow" the interpretaions of color
schemes found in art renderings within the Japanese periodicals of the time.
While Don
had actual color samples of relics which he methodically compared to the
Munsell standards, his profiles were intended as a catalogue of the art work of
others. Hence, while camouflage patterns were accurate when compared to
monochrome photos, the true colors on the aircraft were indeterminate.
There was no
substantive reference/documentaion for the "blue" Ki-100 or the
"blue" Ki-43, other than the art of the Japanese researchers or vague
recollections.
Wartime
intelligence and action reports of "blue" Japanese aircraft are
available; fragments of "blue" painted Japanese aircraft relics
exist; connecting the specific "blue" to a specific aircraft's
overall color has not been accomplished .... yet!(;>)
Photo:Kokufan
- July, 1972 n/t *No Text*
Posted By:
Pete Chalmers
Date:
Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 6:08 a.m.
In Response
To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
Posted By:
Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Friday, 30 August 2002, at 2:17 p.m.
In Response
To: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Wes Stachnick)
There is
much speculation as to the color of this Frank. No matter the
"authority" it is all still just speculation. Some art depicts it as
black, such as MA#329, p 8. But IMHO, the most likely color and your safest bet
is "black-green" (see color chip MA#329, p 28, 4th chip down). Nohara
portrays it as a black-green on the fold-out art of MA#451.
An example
of the "black-brown" color is said to be the very top color chip in
MA#329, p 29.
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
Posted By:
John Dillon <john.dillon@wachovia.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 6:54 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Don Marsh)
The only
source I have is the section on the 57th Shinbu-Tai in the FAOW on the Ki-84,
but it seems to me to be very unlikely that the plane was "pure"
black. While the photos from that source only show the plane in question at a
distance, there are some up close shots of other Hayates in the unit.
Those photos
reveal the type of wear associated with planes that have been painted some time
ago (chipping, stains & fading). I'll go out on a limb and say that none of
the other planes shown up close are painted black. That would make it very
unusual indeed for this particular bird to be all black--though certainly not
impossible.
Does anyone
have any idea where the notion that this plane is black came from? I'm assuming
it is from Japanese sources since all the profiles of it that I'm aware of have
been done in black. Was there some research done to justify this scheme or is
this simply a case of something being "true by repetition?"
As for me, I
put the black Ki-84 in the same class as the mauve Rufe until some solid
evidence comes along to the contrary.
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
Posted By:
Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 9:08 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (John Dillon)
I concur
with all your observations regarding these a/c.
As for your
question, "Does anyone have any idea where the notion that this plane is
black came from?" To the best of my knowledge, it's another case of a
"follow the leader" representation. I.e. the artist first
representing this a/c thought it looked black and portrayed it that way. Subsequent
artists merely immitated this original speculation assuming it was correct.
(Although Nohara san's more recent art now shows this a/c in a dark green). I
can't asy for sure, but I believe that the first color representations of this
a/c were by the excellent aviation artist I. Hasegawa in the late 1980's.
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
Posted By:
Bob T. <bobki100@webtv.net>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 2:40 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Don Marsh)
Well, I've
got the foldout from MM451 and it sures looks black- brown to me and not like
black-green! I say to do it any way you want and forget the color police!
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
Posted By:
Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 6:52 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Bob T.)
Is there a
close FS 595b color equivalent for the black-brown used in the Model Art #451
fold out color profile?
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai color?
Posted By:
Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 10:19 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Bob T.)
I don't care
what color anyone paints anything... ever! People can believe whatever they
want. As an artist I love freedom, fantasy and whimsy. But as a researcher I'm
more interested in establishing historic fact as accurately as possible. As an
artist and researcher I never take another artist's speculation and representation
as fact. Only photography. While this can be frustrating and quite limiting,
it's the only factual record we have. And there is already enough erroneous
speculation out there as it is.
Certainly,
people build for many different reasons. But at the bottom of it all, it's
usually for the pleasure it brings. For some, the pleasure comes from the use
of their hands. For others, it may be just a pastime. But for other's still,
the pleasure comes from creating as accurate a representation of history as possible
(at least in military building). Often, for these people, the digging for
facts, the learning, and the process of discovery are as important as the
building itself. No matter one's reason for building, there is no right or
wrong. However, when a question is posed by one of our fellow builders
sincerely seeking historic accuracy, it would be irresponsible of any honest
researcher to give a non reply by saying, "make it any color you
like."
May everyone
here derive great pleasure and fulfillment from this wonderful hobby, for
whatever reason they have to do so.
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai color?
Posted By:
Bob T. <bobki100@webtv.net>
Date:
Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 10:59 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color? (Don Marsh)
Sorry but this
sounds like AMS to me.What are you supposed to do when one reference says the
color is black, another black-green and yet another black-brown.The war's been
over 57 years and chances are we'll never know for sure the correct color.
Also,when I say 'paint it anyway you want',that only applies to a/c whose color
schemes are in question,not to known schemes.I certainly would not paint a Zero
pink.
Re:
57th Shinbu-Tai color?
Posted By:
Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date:
Thursday, 5 September 2002, at 12:46 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color? (Bob T.)
I appreciate
your response and understand your position. And you're right, if the answer
isn't clear, using an educated guess and painting it as you think looks neat is
about all one can do. It's that or stop building. Not a satisfactory response
to my way of thinking.
You are also
right that there has been a lot of "water under the bridge." But as
frustrating as the limitations are in this field, all is not lost. Despite the
passing of time, we know more about the facts today than we did 30 years ago
when we were closeer to the events. With more unbiased reserchers; technical
advancments; documents coming to light, such as: new photos from private and
family collections, relics surfacing from many sources, decalssified documents,
intelligence information being discovered in files not looked at in 57 to 51
years; doors opening between east and west, etc., much is being learned. In the
past, much speculation was accepted as fact and erroeous information was often
merely copied and repeated. But there is a good deal of genuine and original
research taking place today. Many dedicated researchers are meticulously
putting the pieces togther everyday (many of the best are regulars here at J-a/c
dot com). And while I'm sure that there is much that we will never know, there
is still much that we can and will learn.
If no clear
information exists, I'm with with you... make a genuine effort to get it right
and that's all one can do. And who's to say you're wrong.
I wish you
(and all builders) as much joy in building as I find in the quest for answers
to some of these mysteries.
Posted By:
Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 10:06 a.m.
last year
during our visit to the Harada collection in lake Kawaguchiko, we noticed a
piece of a rudder of a Hayate hunging about 2.5 meters from the ground, inside
a paint frame covered/protected with some plastic. I took about 10 photos but
the light conditions are very bad in there so only one photo turned out
relatively good.
This year we
visited the place again. This time we brought the FS deck with us and more
dedicated than before took many more photos which came out much much better.
Only
that...from the printed photos the rudder looks like it has changed color!
Compare its color with the chips of pages 48 and 49 of the FS deck. We have
PROOF regarding the usage of blue color on Japanese planes...or maybe not. The
rudder is green. I repeat, Green.
So much
regarding proof...or the luck of it...or the influence of the Gobi desert sand
color to the paint of Abyssinian planes...
Editors
note: Picture at http://home.t-online.de/home/joern.leckscheid/HayateRudder.jpg
Re:
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?)
Posted By:
JCC <modelstories@free.fr>
Date:
Tuesday, 27 August 2002, at 1:35 a.m.
In Response
To: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC* (Elephtheriou George)
Here in
France we have a paint for the Mirage and Rafale which looks grey by cloudy
weather and blue on sunny days...maybe it is the same effect here.
A similar
occurrence happened to me at Cosford : photographed from away the Fi 156 looked
Green, from up close with flash-light it turned out grey
Re:
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?)
Posted By:
Nick Millman
Date:
Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 10:23 a.m.
In Response
To: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC* (Elephtheriou George)
Looks like a
folded Union Jack to me.
Stained with
tears.
Re:
Green Frank Tail! *PIC*
Posted By:
James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date:
Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 7:22 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) (Nick Millman)
Here is a
better photo taken by George of the HARADA-san Ki-84 Frank rudder from No.102
F.
Credit: (c)
Elephtheriou George via J-A Dot Com
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-84_102fr_color.jpg
Re:
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?):Green!
Posted By:
Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date:
Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 9:26 p.m.
In Response
To: Re: Green Frank Tail! *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
that was the
best photo I was able to take during our last year's visit.
It wasn't
posted in any board but was put up in the walkaround section for a while.
Posted By:
Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson28@ntlworld.com>
Date:
Friday, 26 July 2002, at 6:39 a.m.
Can anyone
help me with some confusion over the role of a 71st Sentai Ki-84 in the air
battle which resulted in the loss of Major McGuire over Negros Island in 1945?
There is a
very interesting account of the battle in the John Stanaway Osprey book on P-38
aces. The book describes McGuires flight of four aircraft taking on a Ki-43 of
the 54th Sentai flown by WO Sugimoto, and a Ki-84 from the 71st Sentai flown by
Sgt Fukuda joining in after battle commenced. Stanaway suggests the Ki-84 (Fukuda)shot down Maj.
Rittmayer, but was itself then forced down and the pilot
shot by Filipino partisans. Unfortunately the names of sugimoto and Fukuda seem
to get muddled in the text, so I am not sure if I have got it right, and am
unclear if either Japanese aircraft or pilots survived?
Re:
71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
Posted By:
David Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date:
Friday, 26 July 2002, at 8:08 a.m.
In Response
To: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (Andrew Johnson)
The late
Carroll Anderson, pilot 433rd FS, 475th FG, and Sam Tagaya worked together many
years ago on this topic. All others who quote the Ki-43 and Ki-84 story
reference this source [Air Force magazine?]. The Ki-84 pilot survived and added
a sidebar to the article, and the Ki-43 pilot was killed on the ground that
day. I do not have that file in front of me right now....so I can not cite the
source of the article.
Sgt.
FUKUDA, Mizunori (after the war) *PIC*
Posted By:
UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Friday,
26 July 2002, at 10:43 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (David Aiken)
I eventually
found the pics of Fukuda and Sugimoto in a book.
According to
the book, that was Fukuda's first aerial victory during the war. He was born in
Kagoshima Prefecture in 1924.
He says,
"I saw the red or purple muffler of the pilot."
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.imira.ne.jp/album/photo.asp?PID=266036&ImgType=0
WO
SUGIMOTO, Akira in 1943 *PIC*
Posted By:
UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date:
Friday, 26 July 2002, at 10:47 a.m.
In Response
To: Sgt. FUKUDA, Mizunori (after the war) *PIC* (UCHIDA, Katsuhiro)
He was shot
dead on the ground after he made a forced-landing on Jan. 7, 1945.
Source:
"Taiheiyo Sendo Koku Shiwa Vol. 1" by Dr. HATA, Ikuhiko (1995 Chuo
Koron)
Editors
note: Picture at http://www.imira.ne.jp/album/photo.asp?PID=266037&ImgType=0
Re:
71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
Posted By:
Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson28@ntlworld.com>
Date:
Saturday, 27 July 2002, at 2:09 a.m.
In Response
To: Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (David Aiken)
Did you read
the account by Thropp found on, I think, the 5th Air force website?
He believed
Sugimoto had pulled enough lead, and was close enough to have shot McGuire down
(rather than McGuire simply stalling out).
I have made
a model of the Ki-84 of Fukuda in the markings of the 71st Sentai. Well, of
course not sure really what it looked like, but I did put the 71st Sentai
marking on the tail.