Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf"
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 11:47 a.m.
There is only one photo of this very curiously marked Ki 61 (read below). I will send you a scan. Also, here is a copy of a posting I made here on the j-aircraft
army board back in June of 1999 regarding the markings of this bird...
Many of you are familiar with the existence of one particular Ki 61 aircraft found at Chofu AB; described as a "chocolate bar" brown Tony with white combat stripe & insignia of the 244th Sentai and displaying a large "kelly-green shamrock" on both sides of the fuselage. At issue is the shamrock.
It is my contention that this graphic is not a shamrock [genus trifolium], but is in fact katabami (wood sorrel) [genus oxalis]. Although this plant produces a small five-petaled flower, emblems using this plant as a motif are almost always based on the three-petaled leaf. To western sensibilities this design could easily be mistaken for a three-leaf clover. Wood sorrel was used to make medicinal salves and also to polish bronze mirrors, hence it was also known as kagamigusa (mirror plant). Wood sorrel is almost always portrayed with sword blade devices as part of the design, either appearing tiny and integrated into the central base of the leaf or in larger format between each leaf or both. When appearing with swords separating the leaves, it is called ken katabami (Wood sorrel with swords).
Known as a military crest, Katabami was a common & popular crest with the warrior class, especially in the form of ken-katabami. It is commonly found on weapons, armor etc. of samurai dating back to the Kamakura period (1185-1333).
To my knowledge there is only one photo of this a/c (see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82). If this is the only photographic representation of the alleged "shamrock," the angle of the a/c is so oblique that there isn't enough information to do an accurate or authentic representation of this tri-leafed subject. Even Mr. Nohara's excellent art is rough conjecture. One may only say that the a/c had something that looked like a shamrock to westerners (or katabami to a WWII era Nihon-jin?) painted on the fuselage and refer to the photo for approximate scale and location.
There is no explicable rationale for a shamrock to have been displayed on the side of a Japanese aircraft and historians have found this curious since noted in 1945. It is even less likely that this rather un-Japanese symbol would have been employed at such a time of extreme nationalism. Using this same rationale, the historic & culturally popular military image of katabami becomes obvious, especially in regard to a 20th century samurai pilot employing an 800 year old Japanese tradition.
This is an important issue, not just for the purpose of proper historic identification, but to better understand the culture of the time and spirit of the people. It also serves to restore the pilot of this a/c to his heritage, tradition and military lineage rather than project the likely erroneous scenario that he was "borrowing" a european device.
Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf"
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 7:58 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf" (Don Marsh)
Since this posting, I've gone back and revised a few of the other details on my version of this Ki 61. The original notes with the original photo don't seem to mention the color of the "kill markings" and describe the 244 FR tail marking and the combat band as being "white."
Upon closer inspection, I believe the "kill markings' to be white a/c with deep yellow (or possibly light red) arrow bolts going through them. (Compare the kill marks to the shiny natural metal covers just below them.)
As mentioned, though the notes on this a/c say "white", Nohara san attributes yellow to the combat band and yellow with white outline to the tail marking. While the photo gives little to go on, I believe the 244th marking on this a/c to be red with white outline. The detail may be poor in the shot, but it is obvious that the tail marking is an outlined version and the inner area is very dark (compare to the hinomaru...(see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82).
Posted By: Zaf
Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998, at 9:33 a.m.
I am building a Ki-61 Hien aircraft model. According to Areomaster decals of
the color of the aircraft is the olive drab color with silver color underneath. Is the Japanese used the olive drab color on its aircrafts?
Thanks
Posted By: Peter Fearis <vms@ti.tuvps.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 11 December 1998, at 5:32 a.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 hien color (Zaf)
Dear Zaf
With reference to the olive drab that you plan to use on your Ki-61. I would like to make the following suggestions for paints that you can use. The first in the list
being the most acceptable match.
Aeromaster Warbird colour number 1097
Humbrol number159
Gunze Sangyo number 52.
Hope this is of some help.
yours sincerely
Peter Fearis.
Re: Ki-61 hien color
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sunday, 13 December 1998, at 7:53 p.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 hien color (Zaf)
If you are building a Hien, there are some photographs of parts of a wrecked Ki100 displayed in Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo. No use in determining the external
colors, but the photos here show the landing gear strut/wheel/tire, armor plate, and propeller blade, and could be interesting.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~fk7h-tkuc/hp/english/yasukuni.html
Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@mailhost.kani.or.jp>
Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998, at 9:08 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)
Imperial Japanese Army Force's Olive Drave as follows;
Munsell Color from Remark
2.5Y4/3 FS30095
2.5Y3/3 Ki100 Propeller Blade Yasukuni Shrine
2.5Y3/3 Type94 Radio Control Box Nakagawa Collection
2.5Y3/2 Ki61 Electric Control Panel Kakamigahara Aerospace Museum
5Y3/2 Ki67 Fragment Owaki Collection
7.5Y5/4 FS14255/Buff Green
7.5Y4.5/2 Ki45Kai/4065 Fragment Shubudai Memorial,JASDF Iruma
7.5Y3/2 Wooden Drop Tank Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y2/2 FS14087/Olive Drab
These colors were so-called "Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku"(Dark Yellow Green No.7) and used from June 15,1943 to the end of War.
Katsushi Owaki
Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 6:35 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab (Katsushi
Owaki)
Owaki-san,
Thank you for the very interesting post.
I have a question that you may be able to clarify for me; were ALL these colors called Oryoku-shoku 7 go (by the way, I don't think oryokushoku would necessarily
tranlsate into DARK yellow green; just o (yellow) ryoku(green), right?), or are you referring to one of the clolors in your list?
The reason I am asking this is because of the rather wide variety of the colors described here, and due to Yoji Watanabe's caption on page 55 of FAOW No.65
(Jul97) regarding Oryokushoku 7 go. Watanabe states that oryokushoku 7 go was the standard color for drop tanks and the color would best be described as a
pale green.
I would appreciate it very much if this point can be clarified.
IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 4:02 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab (Katsushi
Owaki)
OWAKI-san has contributed greatly to the documentation of the hues of IJAAF olives, browns and greens. His findings have confirmed, reinforced, and
supplemented other research. A comparison of some of his documentation and research compared with color matches to other IJAAF aircraft relics are as follows:
OWAKI-san Research-/-Lansdale Collection
FS-30095-/-FS-30095
2.5Y3/3-/-FS-10059
2.5Y (various)-/-FS-30277
FS-14255-/-FS-14255
FS-24065 (?)-/-FS-34056
FS-14087 (?)-/-FS-24088
7.5Y (various)-/-FS-34094
Other IJA "greens" include FS-16350, FS-24128, and 34092 (which may be a weathered 34094). I am most appreciative of his contribution and sincerely hope
OWAKI-san will continue to post the results of his research to further increase our catalogue of known IJAAF colors.
Jim Lansdale
Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@mailhost.kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 5:32 p.m.
In Response To: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens (James F. Lansdale)
I am apologizing to my terrible Message Board debut.I am a PC biginner and have to brush up English!!
It is not that Ki45Kai/4065 means FS24065. "4065" is manufacturer's serial number. Also,FS14087 is in my old FS595a which has no FS24088.
Hiroyuki-San, "Genyoh-Ameiro" of IJNAF and "Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku" of IJAAF are two big Mysterys in the Pacific War in my mind. I am just a few steps to the
"Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku". A first step was on page 77 and 80 in MA #428 "Hien/Ki100"(5/94) issue and the second one is on page 55 in FAoW(7/97). Please give
me some more times.
Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Monday, 21 December 1998, at 7:44 p.m.
In Response To: Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens (Katsushi
Owaki)
Hello everyone.This is a some addition for my "Re:Ki-61 hien color,IJAF Olive Drab.
1Y5/5.5.....Khaki
2.5Y4/3.....20095/FS595a
2.5Y3/3.....Type 94 Radio Control Box.......Nakagawa Collection
2.5Y3/3.....Ki100 Propeller
Blade...........Yasukuni Shrine
2.5Y3/2.....Ki61 Electrical Control Panel...Kakamigahara Aerospace Museum
2.5Y3/2.....MA#428/Ki61/Ki100/Ankkashoku(Dark Brown)
5Y3/2.......Ki67............................Owaki Collection
7.5Y5/4.....14255/FS595a/Buff Green
7.5Y4.5/2...Ki45Kai/4065....................Shubudai Memorial,JASDF Iruma
7.5Y3.5/4...Olive
7.5Y3/4.....Ki45Kai/4268....................NASM Silver Hill,refer from "Cockpir Interiors Pt.1 pp.18
7.5Y3/2.5...Wooden Drop Tank................Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y3/2.....Wooden Drop Tank................Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y3/1.5...MA#428/Kokkashoku(Black Brown)
7.5Y3/1.....MA#329/Rikugun Senntoki/Kahki
7.5Y3/1.....MA#395/Ki43/Ankkashoku(Dark Brow)
7.5Y2/2.....ANA504/FS14087
Katusi Owaki
Posted By: Brian Walsh <walshb@emotors.com>
Date: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 11:23 a.m.
Hi everyone, I am a long time Luftwaffe modeler and thought it was time to build some Japanese aircraft. I have found out that the cockpit colors for Japannese
aircraft is not as straight forward as with the Luftwaffe. Could someone please tell me what was the colors of the cockpit, landing gear wells, and the inside of the
gear doors on the Tony?
Thanks in advance and happy modeling.
Brian Walsh
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Chris Livingston <chrisatty@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:06 p.m.
In Response To: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Brian Walsh)
Hi!
Yup, as far as I can tell, it's some shade of tan. However, the primer on our Ki-61 at Weeks has probably color shifted so I wouldn't rely on it for what it really
looked like. Your modeler buds can give you better FS numbers and what not than I can.
Any other details you need, let me know and I'll do my best.
Keep em flying, Chris Livingston
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Scott Negron <scott_b_negron@mail.bankone.com>
Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:05 a.m.
In Response To: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Brian Walsh)
If you are a long time Luftwaffe model builder than you probably already have the right paint. The closest match is RLM 79 (sandbraun). This is the color of the
cockpit and wheel wells/landing gear covers. Some Tonys may have had natural metal wheel wells. The instrument panel is flat black. Do you have an extra DB 605
engine for it? Scott.
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Brian Walsh <walshb@emotors.com>
Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:34 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Scott
Negron)
Scott,
Thanks for the info, and no I dont have a DB605 engine.
Brian
Posted By: Jeff <chipdog@fuse.net>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
I asked this on another board and got a couple answers. When doing the green dapple (I guess this is what it was called) over metal, should it be airbrushed, brushed on, put on with a q-tip, or what would be correct?
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <lotsabooks@msn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 8:12 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
I agree with Chuck and George!
You have lots of options due to the fact that it was done differently in real life. The biggest thing I can add is check your references to see the various "looks".
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 11:40 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
Depends on the scale and the type of the plane. Also, the quality of your airbrush and the colors you want to use.
If the plane you are modelling is an army plane, for example, and was painted with brush, then I sugest you use a brush to paint it. If it's a bomber, depents on the quality of your airbrush (and your skill), not to mention the scale.
Sometimes, when I want to paint a brush painted "Tony", I use liquid rubber (sorry, I don't know the english word) to mask the areas I don't want to paint.
What methods have you already used that didn't satisfied you? And what scale do you usually model?
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Clark Hollis <chollis@stewart.com>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
Hi Jeff,
Let me try to give you a loaded answer to your loaded question. In real life, the camo paint was applied in any one of various ways, which included application by spray gun, paint brush, rags and maybe even brooms! The most common was probably by spray gun (airbrush).
Experiment with paint application on your models to see which method gives you the desired results. You didn't say what scale you are working with. Sometimes, results will be better in the smaller scales, using a hand-brushed application, rather than trying to airbrush it. Whatever looks best to you is the way to do it.
Happy modeling.
Posted By: JC Carbonel <jean-christophe.carbonel@laposte.fr>
Date: Thursday, 31 August 2000, at 7:23 a.m.
I have this one kit for a long time but I can't find any OPERTIONAL picture of the real thing. All the pictures I have seen so far are of the same birdie as gate keeper at an USAAF base in Japan after the war (I think).
Any help someone ?
Re: Tamiya's Ki-61 II
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Sunday, 3 September 2000, at 5:21 a.m.
In Response To: Tamiya's Ki-61 II (JC
Carbonel)
Hi JC,
I have a copy of 'Army Fighters Ki 61'. It is no.93 in a series, I can't identify the publisher, but was authored by Watanabe, c.1983. Page 113 has the only photo I have ever seen of a Ki.61 II in IJA use.
The view is in flight, grainy having the appearace of being a still from a film. The plane is over flying a hanger building at low level and slightly banked towards the camera allowing the top side of the right wing and tail plane to be seen. The plane is overall natural metal with brown spinner and black anti-glare panel. The rudder is a lighter shade than the natural metal, likely doped fabric in silver or the IJA light gray-green. The fuselage hinomaru has no white outline. The one on the topside of the wing is obscured by a broad wash of mud spray. The spray is also visible on the forward cowl in front of the exhausts, back to the wing leading edge. It picks up again just ahead of the wing trailing edge almost back to the hinomaru. The discoloration is so dark on the outer tail planes, they appear painted in a dark color. Heavy exhaust staining is visible all along and confined to just the wing root. There may be a yellow (or very dirty white) rear fuselage 'combat stripe' present, but it is hard to tell in the photo. This is a really dirty bird. That said there may be a dark kanji type symbol on the upper rudder, but it could be just dirt.
The visual effect of the wing mud spatter in the b/w photo is similar to a white MiG-3 with red outer wing panels. The demarcation is diagonal on main and tail planes but opposite handed. The main wing spray pattern covers the wing tip inwards as far as the entire aileron and then tapers towards the forward wing leading edge all the way to the root. The spray pattern on the tail plane has a separation line that is again diagonal with all the trailing edge fouled around to about the outer third of the leading edge. The leading edge of the tail plane is clear from the root out to about 2/3 span.
The book cited above has some odd and obscure Tony I/Ki.100 markings. Two photos show variations in spinner decoration I have not seen else where. Page 187 has a photo of likely a kamikaze plane with a light colored spinner (blue?) from base to ahead of the prop cutouts, having a wide white and narrow red ring ending in a blue? tip color. The wing's yellow leading edge stripe is darker than the spinner's main color, hence my guess that it is blue. The effect is similar to that seen on one 53rd Sentai Nick with I believe red, white and brown spinner rings.
Page 66 has a photo of a Tony I with a white spiral just like a Luftwaffe fighter's spinner. Page 195 has the Kobayashi Ki.100 photo with him standing in front of the scoreboard on the left mid fuselage of the plane. I have had this book for 15 years now, hoping more information on these and others would be published in due course. Does anyone else have more recent information, or perhaps other examples?
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Monday, 10 July 2000, at 3:21 p.m.
Hi everyone,
Aeromaster sheet 48-116 has decals for a Ki61 of the HQ Sqdn., 68 Sentai with 'palm frond' camouflage. What sub-variant of the Ki 61 is this correct for? The early short-nosed 61-I Koh? Thanks for any help!
Cheers!
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Ed Esposito <EEML@home.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 July 2000, at 9:44 p.m.
In Response To: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Greg Springer)
Remember, Greg, that the first three production variants --Ki-61 ko, otsu, & hei -- were all short-nosed. The tei (d) was the first long-nose.
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wednesday, 12 July 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Ed Esposito)
Ed and Clark,
Thanks for your help. My problem stems from the fact that instructions for the other three schemes on the 48-116C sheet give the sub-variants (one otsu, two teis). The one I want to build doesn't. I feel it is an early model because the 68th was one of the first units to get Ki 61s. There are photos of one of the first Ki 61s captured. It has similar markings but the fuselage band just behind the cockpit is white rather than blue. I wonder if someone extrapolated the scheme on the decals from the well-known photograph?
Cheers!
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Clark Hollis <Raidenhollis@cs.com>
Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 3:07 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Greg Springer)
Greg,
What photograph are you referring to? I'll try to do more research when I get home.
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Clark Hollis)
Hi Clark,
In Peter Scotts' "Emblems of the Rising Sun" it appears on page 120 and is identified as the first intact Ki 61 koh captured by the Allies at Cape Gloucester in Dec.'43. It is stated to be the mount of the commander, 2nd Chutai, 68th Sentai. Peter has also included a color profile in the book which shows the tail emblem to be in red, outlined in white. Two more pictures and a profile appear in Model Art 428, page 166. Thanks!
Cheers!
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Clark Hollis
Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 8:07 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Greg Springer)
Hi Greg,
My humble opinion is, that I would tend to go with the Peter Scott rendering, combined with photographic evidence, and that the bird is a short nose version.
HTH. Good luck on the model.
Re: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme
Posted By: Clark Hollis
Date: Monday, 10 July 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
In Response To: Aeromaster Ki 61 scheme (Greg Springer)
Greg,
I don't have that decal sheet, but I have sheet 48-133 which has a 68 Sentai machine in that type camouflage and it is shown as a short-nosed variant. This is correct according to the info on page 166 of Model Art No.428.
HTH.
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Saturday, 8 July 2000, at 9:23 a.m.
I have been looking at photos of KI 61s and I note that Kobayashi's Ki 61 number 24 had an attachment on the upper fuselage forward of the cockpit on the left side. It looks like a Venturi to me. However, his Ki 61 number 295 did not and I have not seen that on any other Ki 61 photos. Does anyone have an explanation for this ?
I will gladly supply photo references to anyone.
Thank you
Re: Kobayashi's Ki 61's venturi
Posted By: David_Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, 8 July 2000, at 6:55 p.m.
In Response To: Kobayashi's Ki 61 (Grant
Goodale)
Hi Grant,
Long time, no hear! Welcome back!
Kobayashi was an ex-bomber pilot. Bomber pilots and others learned to trust a venturi powered instrument versus the alternative. With his clout as CO, some suggest that he could order the venturi installation.
You might note that 295 (no venturi) with 2 to 5 kills was the one he rammed a B-29 with.
The Ki-61 #24 with a bar over the 24 had four kills (one white/three dark color), then it had a red Ki-61 across the 6th kill has no
venturi.
His famous #24 with the 8 B-29s and two F6Fs; then 12 B-29s and two F6Fs...has a
venturi.
His dark colored Ki-61 #87 also carried 12 B-29s and two F6Fs and no
venturi.
His double white striped Ki-61 only reveals enough of the kills to show 9 B-29s and 2 F6Fs, but has a
venturi.
There is only one shot, a close-up, of his Ki-100Ib that shows only three kills and little else of the plane except enough of the canopy to determine it as a Ki-100Ib.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Posted By: Jeff Curtis <jefftcurtis@earthlink.net>
Date: Saturday, 10 June 2000, at 11:10 a.m.
I'm ready to start building the DML 1/72 Tony. I also have the Aero Master 72-062 sheet, which has decals for a Type 3. The kit calls for RLM 79, sandy brown for the interior, while the color profile with the decals shows the interior of the wheel wells to be aotake. Can someone tell me which is correct? Also, The decal sheet also show the control surface in a light grey-green. Can anyone tell me what color this is specifically? Thanks.
Re: Ki-61 interior color
Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sunday, 11 June 2000, at 3:45 a.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 interior color (Jeff Curtis)
Hi Jeff,
The instructions seem to correct but for the use of Aotake in the wheel wells.
From Model Art on the Ki 61 and Ki 100 fighters and from other sources a greenish sand (Khaki) is the right color for any interior part normally visible from the exterior of the plane. The light gray-green color of the control surfaces is a widespread practice to finish the fabric covered surfaces of otherwise NMF planes and was used by Nakajima too for the Ki 43 Hayabusa...
It comes from the fact that IJAAF planes wher normally finished before in the same gray green as a base coat, the plane being then let as is or field camouflaged with other appropriate color(s). When Ki 43 Hayabusa (Army type 1 fighter) was introduced, it was decided that the single engined fighters were now to be delivered in NMF (most probably to speed up deliveries) and the eventual supplementary camouflage was to be applied at unit level (without primer by the way). As the fabbric covered areas necessitated a protective tension and waterproffing coat and no other "standard" paint was available at this time it was simply decided that these surfaces should remain in the traditional gray-green once used all over the planes...
It seems that only late in the war (and for Nakajima only) with the appearance
of the Ki 84 Hayate, a coat of silver dope replaced the gray-green on these parts. Kawasaki stood with the original gray-green for the fabric covered areas up to the end.
Beware of the fact the reference to RLM 79 paint is NOT ACCURATE as far as the real RLM color is concerned. It refers to the ITALIAN SAND color used by the Luftwaffe as a complement to their referenced colors when they went to the western desert at the beginning of the involvement of German troops. the real RLM 79 color is much browner and darker and totally unsuitable for the interior color of a Ki 61 - 100...
Hope it helps.
Re: Ki-61 interior color
Posted By: TAKASHI MIYAMAE
Date: Sunday, 11 June 2000, at 8:19 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 interior color (François P.
WEILL)
Hi Jeff.
I think the colour of interior(include wheel well, and inside wheel covers) Ki-61's was HM63 matt sand.
Some Ki-61s have semigross black legs. Some Ki-61shave a black armmour plate.
Instulment panel was black. A Ki-61, what photo in REVI, has DARK GLAY GREEN 3rd canopy inside.
I saw many Ki-61 and Ki100's photos. And I saw YASUKUNI JINJA's Ki-100's black armour plate.
best modeling!
Posted By: Othniel Guimarães <othcosta@bol.com.br>
Date: Thursday, 8 June 2000, at 9:57 p.m.
Hi, there.
I'm modelling a Hasegawa Jt 14 Kawasaki Hien "244th Fighter Group", used by the Major T. Kobayashi. I chose the first option camouflage scheme in natural metal with dark green blotches. The box showed this kit with a blue stripe along he fuselage but the decal sheet brings this stripe in black.
Could someone tell me if aircraf stripes were blue or black ?
Thanks in advance.
Re: Ki 61 I Color Stripes
Posted By: Ryan Toews <ritoews@mb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 June 2000, at 9:34 a.m.
In Response To: Ki 61 I Color Stripes (Othniel Guimarães)
Hello Othniel,
I don't have this kit in my collection so I am not sure which version of Kobayashi's several Ki-61's the decal sheet is replicating, but of all the illustrations I have of his aircraft none of them show any with a black stripe. I would therefore assume that the stripe should be blue.
Posted By: Chris Livingston <chrisatty@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 8:55 p.m.
Hi everyone,
Glad to find this board. I'm a volunteer at Weeks Air Museum here in Miami. Contrary to some info on the net, we DON'T have an A6M Zero at this site-- check our other location, Fantasy of Flight, at Polk City, Florida, USA (in the Orlando area) and that's where you can see a wrecked A6M5.
What we DO have is the only Ki-61 Hien on public display in the US that I know of. To be exact, it's a Ki-61-Ia (I use dashes instead of dots because that's how it's stenciled on the drop tank racks) serial number 379 so according to Richard Bueschel's excellent book that would be line number 266. Mikesh in "Broken Wings of the Samurai" says our Tony served with the 78th Sentai. Predictably for IJAAF aircraft in New Guinea, it has a nice collection of bullet rips and shell strikes in the left wing, angling slightly up and in. My guess is a Spit V with the B wing hosed it from 7:00 low and the pilot had to park in the jungle, as they say. Check our site at weeksairmuseum.com for a good photo. And go to my good friend Astroboy's Zero Homepage (can't remember the URL offhand) for a photo I took and also a photo of yours truly next to our TBM-3E Avenger, back when I had long hair.
If anybody needs info, let me know and I'll try to answer. I have about 300 closeup photos of just about every part of the plane. I see a lot of questions about cockpit color. Answer: I don't rightly know! The paint is long gone from most of our poor old Ki-61. I do see tan-colored primer here and there inside. The underwing Hinomaru and yellow leading edges are still good, but probably have suffered color shift (see Mikesh, "Restoring Museum Aircraft"). The fuselage access hatch still has some brushed-on paint, medium green. And you can tell where the dark anti-glare paint was on the upper cowling. The spinner appears to have been red at some point. The engine, prop, weapons, radios, instrument, gunsight, radiator, and wing fuel tanks are all gone or in storage. The control surfaces are in storage except the right wing flap. To clear up some wrong info I've seen in some places about -Ia armament, the wing gun mounts and ammo boxes are definitely 7.7mm and the cowl deck gun mounts are just about right for 12.7mm, based on measuring our (fake) .50 Browning in the gun pit next to the display. As to settling questions about 20mm MG-151, 30mm Ho-155, whatever, etc., sorry, can't help, ask someone with a -Ic or d!
Now if I can ask a return favor, could someone point me out a source for 78th Sentai markings? I've seen lots of paintings of 68th Sentai aircraft but I don't know what ours is supposed to be like. There is a dark diagonal streak on the side that starts out broad at the vertical fin trailing edge and tapers down to the fuselage belly, about halfway between horizontal stabilizer and wing. Wish I could email photos but my scanner software keeps crashing my computer, and I need my computer for work! Sorry again!
Hope I can be of service otherwise.
Keep em flying, Chris Livingston
Re: Need Ki-61 info? We have the plane
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 7:49 p.m.
In Response To: Need Ki-61 info? We have the plane (Chris Livingston)
Hello Chris,
The the unit assigments of Tonys in New Guinea is not well understood, at least not by me. See "Pacific Aircraft Wrecks... and where to find them", by Charles Darby, c.1979, Kookaburra Pubs., pages 3 and 68 for 3 b/w photos of s/n 640 seen in 1973 near Nuku. The ammunition load is displayed draped over the wings. The plane has a "squiggle" camo of dark green over natural metal. A narrow, straight, dart like marking is displayed diagonally across the tail fin, point down at the juncture of the tailplane leading edge, and widening out towards the rudder trim tab. The rudder fabric is not present in the photos taken in 1973 and the marking may not have extended across the rudder. The fin marking is likely white as is the spinner tip and rear fuselage combat stripe. The rear half of the spinner and prop blades appear to be the standard brown/maroon shade.
Arco-Aircam Aviation Series-No.15, Nakajima Ki.43 Hayabusa I-III in Japanese Army Air Force -RTAF-CAF-IPSF Service, by R. M. Bueschel, c.1970, Osprey/Aircam, eighth page after the center color profile section, top photo, shows an Oscar wreck in the foreground and a Tony tail immediately behind. The Tony tail has the same dart like mark, this time in a dark color (red?) running across the fin and intact rudder fabric. Superimposed over the dart is a white Kanji or Hiragana alphabet letter similar to a ? mark with a circular outline.
Model Art #428 special, I.J. Army Kawasaki type 3 & 5 Fighter, pages 167 and 168 have 2 b/w photos and 3 b/w profiles of Tonys the authors attribute to the 78th Sentai. One machine seen at the bottom of page 168 is intact, with a squiggle camo and has only a white Kanji letter similar to a 7 about mid way up on the rudder. The middle b/w profile on page 167 is also of this plane. The upper photo on page 168 is of a wreck with short white tailplane and fin stripes or bars. None extend over the mostly intact fabric control surfaces. The lower b/w profile on page 167 is also of this machine. The photo, not the b/w profile, shows a portion of a circular outline, level with the fin's horizontal stripe or bar. But a ripple or rip in the fabric obscures its extent and whether it enclosed a Kanji type letter. The top b/w profile on page 167 has the stylized pictogram of eight 7s in a radial flower petal pattern with the horizontal bars of the numerals forming the perimeter as described by R. Graham in his post.
The Right Staff resin 1/48 Ki.61 kit has the flower petal design given in four colors on the decal sheet. The usual red, white and yellow with a fourth in green. The planes with this marking are always depicted in bare natural metal, so I would take this to mean the unit marking is as applied while in training/unit work up in Japan.
"Warpath Across the Pacific", by Lawrence J. Hickey, c.1984, International Research & Publishing Corp., has blurry strike photos taken in New Guinea on pages 49, 60, 118, 120 and 121 showing Tonys getting worked over. Page 49 shows a Tony with the short white stripe/bars on fin and tailplanes at Boram on 9/27/43. The apparent camo netting over much of the plane obscures the rudder area. Boram again on 10/16/43 where two of the three photos on page 60 appear to be the same plane also with the short white horizontal fin stripe and white two digit numeral on the lower gear door. It has a white Kanji type letter on the rudder level with the fin stripe. The front tip of the spinner is also in white. The other photo has a Tony with a short white horizontal rudder stripe and a dark colored two digit numeral on the lower gear door. The plane's spinner is not attached or visible in the photo. Both planes may have the short bar/stripe on the tailplanes but the view angle and glare makes it hard to distinguish. All Tonys described above have the squiggle camo over natural metal. Pages 118, 120 and 121 have three photos of the same line up of four Tonys at Dagua being parafragged on 3/3/44. All are attributed to the 78th Sentai. The rear plane has a white dart marking on the tail with two digits on the upper fin/rudder area, white spinner and combat stripe. The next plane forward has a short white horizontal rudder stripe and combat stripe and all dark colored spinner. The next plane has a dark colored rudder and spinner with no apparent tail markings. The foremost plane has at least a partial white spinner but no apparent tail markings.
Arco-Aircam Aviation Series No.27, Kawasaki Ki.61/Ki.100 Hien in Japanese Army Air Force Service, by R. M. Bueschel, c.1971, Osprey Pubs., page 2, another photo of the plane with white Kanji similar to a numeral 7 on rudder attributed to 78th. The 9th page after title page, top photo, a strike photo of 2 planes, one definitely with the upper 1/4 of the rudder white and white front half of spinner also attributed to the 78th. There is a white two digit numeral on the lower main gear door. The other plane has a white spinner but the image view from the front quarter of the plane prevents a good view of the tail area. The bottom photo on the next page is the same as at the bottom of page 168 in M.A. #428 cited above. The top photo on the 13th page after the title page is the same as the top photo on page 168 of M.A. #428. Arco/Aircam #27 center section color profile E1 is of the plane with the white Kanji like a numeral 7 on the rudder.
Maru Mechanics #37 & #45; FAOW old series 4/72 & #143, new series #17; Kokufan Illustrated specials #40 & #42, Kokufan "silver specials" vol.1; Kokufan mag 11/74; Model Art #395; Monografie Lotnicze No.5 Ki.61 Hein; Ki.61 Tony, by P. Gaudette are references with many of the same photos above.
Speculation only:
1. The 78th dropped the relatively complex flower petal design while in
New Guinea for various types of white markings on the fin and rudder described above, possibly denoting the various chutais of the unit. There
were four chutais using the original pictogram marking. 2. The 68th Sentai is known to have used their
marking while in New Guinea. The unit commander's plane was captured with the marking intact. It is
possible the 68th, at some latter date in the campaign, also modified their marking. This may account for the dark (red?) dart form shown in
Aircam No.15. 3. The possibility of additional unit(s) operating Tony's in New Guinea,
likely not an entire Sentai or we would have heard of it by now, but possibly short lived independant
chutai(s). 4. Given the high attrition imposed on the JAAF in New Guinea, the various
white markings may have been the result of a combined unit of surviving elements of the 68th and 78th Sentais, with remnants of several
chutais, possibly as many as 6 or 7, having as many variations in markings. The marking you describe on the Weeks Tony is not exactly like any of the above, if I understand your description correctly of a dark colored, tapering, diagonal, straight line from the mid rear fuselage up to the tail. Most anything is possible. Until M.A. #428, I was unaware two Tonys were assigned to the 50th Sentai for evaluation purposes, displaying that unit's huge fuselage to tail lightning bolt.
Perhaps the captured aircraft reports, to which Jim Lansdale has access, may shed more light on this subject. My speculations above do not answer your question about the parent unit of the Weeks machine, or even narrow down the search. That information may not be discoverable at this late date.
Please make and post FS 595 color comparisons for the remaining swatches of paint on the airframe even if the swatches are deteriorated. Especially the hand brushed "medium green" on the interior of the rear fuselage compartment door. Anything is of value. I am also interested in the sandy/tan color. Is it translucent or opaque on the Weeks machine? What is its nearest FS 595 equivalent?
Pilot of "Sham"rock?
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 12:52 a.m.
Don/Hiryu/Rob/Tennessee
The Ki-61 bearing the katabami (herein "sham"rock) may have been associated with Major Teruhiko KOBAYASHI, however, his Ki-61 mount is fairly well known and was different. During the closing stages of the war he was flying the Ki-100 and the Ki-61 bearing the katabami was photographed AFTER the war.
It appears more likely that this aircraft could have been flown by capt. Chuichi ICHIKAWA, as proposed and pictured by Shigeru NOHARA in Model Art No.416 "Medaled Pilots of the Japanese Army Air Force in World War II" pages 12, 126-127. My Japanese is very poor. Perhaps Hiroyuki TAKEUCHI or Tennessee KATSUTA could provide us with a better summary of NOHARA's rationale in Model Art No.416. If it is possible, they could also check out in Japan the mon of both ICHIKAWA and KOBAYASHI to determine if this aircraft is indeed one of their mounts.
Interestingly, NOHARA-san has portrayed the Ki-61 in dark green and not "chocolate bar brown" as described by the photographer, James P. GALLAGHER.
Could we get any information on the mon of these two pilots?
Re: Pilot of "Sham"rock?
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 11:16 p.m.
Rob,
I not sure how difficult it is to research a particular family's mon today. in ancient times there use to be a yearly publishing of family crests; I would be interested if anyone knows of a modern equivalent.
Even if katabami turns out not to be the family crest of Kobayashi or Ichikawa, that doesn't mean that one of them (or who ever's a/c this was) couldn't have adopt this design simply as a warrior's emblem. As Mr. Lansdale has previously stated, I too will not speculate on who's a/c this might be without facts and proof. However, having confirmation of a correlation between this a/c's graphic and the mon of one of these families would make powerful testimony.
As for the "same name, different class" scenario you questioned; Japanese crests are not like European crests in that they were not constructions based on a regulated system with mandated rules, mottos and such, the Japanese system was more open and free flowing. A family's crest may have originally been selected for any number of personal reasons. Generally speaking, there are five categories of motive: martial, memorial, auspicious, indicative and religious. Although each family had a crest that was handed down through the generations, it was not unusual for "differencing" of a family crest to occur, at first resulting from family conflicts, and later, as families grew larger individuals of the same lineage began making minor changes to the original crest so as to distinguish themselves, hence many variations on a family motif may exist.
It was also not unusual for the ruling class to have several crests: a "fixed crest" (jo-mon) handed down through the generations and additional crests, called kae-mon, might be used as variants or commemorations. They would only be worn at the same time under very special circumstances where one had to be "dressed to the nines." Warriors were often given their crests by their lords for meritorious service; this didn't necessarily mean they would cease using there original family crest. Crests could be inherited through matrimony or exchanged between families. Although it was taboo and against the law to use another families crest unless granted by imperial court, it was still common to find hundreds of families throughout the country using a variation of a particular motif, like katabami (or another particular item). Of course, sometimes there would still be unscrupulous appropriations, and under the right circumstances another's crest was sometimes taken as a war prize.
Mata… Don
Re: Pilot of "Sham"rock?
Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 6:29 p.m.
In Response To: Pilot of "Sham"rock? (James F. Lansdale)
Hi, Gentlemen:
The Ki61 in question was first illustrated by S.Nohara in Pg.108 of Model Art No.263"Ki61 Hien"(Dec.1985). He describes this Hien as Kobayashi's mount and he reasons that judging from the number of kill markings on the aircraft, the only one capable of such accomplishment in 244 sentai is Kobayashi. Unfortunately, he doesn't explain why he illustrated the Ki61 in green instead of chocolate brown. However, he disagrees with the author of "Meatballs and Dead Birds" with regards to the colour of the tail markings and fuselage band. He compares the colours of the tail markings and the band to the white edge on the hinomaru, and says they are too dark to be white. So, perhaps he didn't find the statement of the author of "Meatballs..." too reliable. In the same book however, there are colour chips compiled by the late Mr.Ichiro Hasegawa, and he suggests there were some Ki61's stationed at Chofu(where the Ki61 in question was descovered after the war ended)painted in brown. So there is a good chance that this Ki61 appeared (chocolate) brown.
The same illustration appeared for the second time in FAOW No.17(July 1989),on pg.18. The caption reads, Ki61 flown by Kobayashi OR Ichikawa. He explains his reasoning on pg.82. He reasons that because the kill markings represent 12 B-29 and no F6F (Kobayashi's 10th and 11th kills were F6F's), the markings more likely represent Ichikawa's kills(9 B-29 and 1 F6F destroyed, 6 B-29's damaged) (I wonder if Nohara is suggesting two damaged B-29 represent 1 kill marking. This still doesn't account for Ichikawa's one F6F destroyed).
He explains that "chocolate brown" may represent an actual brown/olive drab colour, or resulted from the fact that Kawaski's green had a quite substantial amount of brown hue in it. This is probably why he illustrated this Ki61 in green.
The same illustration appears for the third time in Model Art No.416 Pg.12, and the caption reads Ki 61 flown by Ichikawa. The article on pg.126-127 doesn't say much about this Ki61 except that this Ki61 may have been Ichikawa's mount. An interesting fact about Ichikawa described in this book is that on April 15 1945, after destroying 2 B-29's and damaging one, he rammed a B-29 but parachuted down safely. So, both of the possible pilots of this Ki61 had a history of ramming a B-29.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
"Sham"rock? part 1 (of2)
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 7:10 p.m.
Many of you are familiar with the existence of one particular Ki 61 aircraft found at Chofu AB; described as a "chocolate bar" brown Tony with white combat stripe & insignia of the 244th Sentai and displaying a large "kelly-green shamrock" on both sides of the fuselage. At issue is the shamrock.
ART WORK:
I have illustrated a Tony with katabami applied as well as the other markings & colors said to be of this particular a/c to help make my point (see link).
All responses to this expostulation are welcome.
Mata — D.B. Marsh
(Editors note: The picture is not reproduced here)
"Sham"rock? part2 (of2)
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 7:01 p.m.
It is my contention that this graphic is not a shamrock [genus trifolium], but is in factkatabami (wood sorrel) [genus oxalis]. Although this plant produces a small five-petaled flower, emblems using this plant as a motif are almost always based on the three-petaled leaf. To western sensibilities this design could easily be mistakenfor a three-leaf clover. Wood sorrel was used to make medicinal salves and also to polish bronze mirrors, hence it was also known as kagamigusa (mirror plant). Wood sorrel is almost alwaysportrayed with sword blade devices as part of the design, either appearing tiny and integrated into the central base of the leaf or in larger format between each leaf or both. When appearing with swords separating the leaves, it is called ken-katabami (Wood sorrel with swords).
Known as a military crest, Katabami was a common & popular crest with the warrior class, especially in the form of ken-katabami. It is commonly found on weapons, armor etc. of samurai dating back to the Kamakura period
(1185-1333).
To my knowledge there is only one photo of this a/c (see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82). If this is the only photographic representation of the alleged "shamrock," the angle of the a/c is so oblique that there isn't enough information to do an accurate or authentic representation of this tri-leafed subject. Even Mr. Nohara's excellent art is rough conjecture. One may only say that the a/c had something that looked like a shamrock to
westerners (or katabami to a WWII era Nihon-jin?) painted on the fuselage and then refer to the photo for approximate scale and location.
There is no explicable rationale for a shamrock to have been displayed on the side of a Japanese aircraft and historians have found this curious since noted in 1945. It is even less likely that this rather un-Japanese symbol would have been employed at such a time of extreme nationalism. Using this same rationale, the historic & culturally
popular military image of katabami becomes obvious, especially in regard to a 20th century samurai pilot employing an 800 year old Japanese tradition.
This is an important issue, not just for the purpose of proper historic identification, but to better understand the culture of the time and spirit of the people. It also serves to restore the pilot of this a/c to his heritage, tradition and military lineage rather than project the likely erroneous scenario that he was "borrowing" a european device.
ART WORK:
I have also illustrated and included four historic versions of katabami from the literally dozens of variations that it takes when depicted in Japan (see link).
All responses to this expostulation are welcome.
Mata — D.B. Marsh
(Editors note: The picture is not reproduced here)