- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <Kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
- Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 8:16 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Nichimo Sonia (Jeff McGuire)
-
- Hi, Jeff.
- Apparently dark blue upper surface scheme was used on IJA aircraft operating
from Taiwan. According to eye witnesses, such scheme was seen on Oscar, Sonia,
- Sally, and Helen. As for other schemes for Sonia, they left the factory in overall IJA grey, but
were often camouflaged at the front. They painted the upper surface dark green, and the pattern ranged from solid to mottle to
sguiggle.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: C. C. Cheng <cheng.150@osu.edu>
- Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 9:48 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (Tennessee Katsuta)
-
- My dear friends
- Since I am a guy from Taiwan, I am extremely interested in this special field
painting scheme. It is said that the units operated in Taiwan were painted in
- dark blue because they had to carry on ¡¥over-water¡¨ mission. However, some
researchers question about this special painting. They think the dark blue is
- nothing but ¡§an effect of weathering and chalking-out of dark-green paint
containing blue pigment¡¨(Wlodarczyk). An excellent research report can be
- checked in this site
- http://www.marksindex.com/aviation/aviation.html (Camouflage & markings of
JAAF type 1 fighter Hayabusa)
- If the weathering theorem is true, the dark blue may not be a homogenous
painting. It may consists of dark green, dark blue, and some rust. Besides
IJAAF, perhaps the dark blue also appeared on IJN¡¦s a/c. When the Tamiya 1/48 N1K1J was displayed in Shizuoka hobby show, it was painted in dark
blue. Maybe that¡¦s the color bias problem of my magazine, but I prefer to
image that both IJAAF and IJNAF units in Taiwan lacked of good quality painting at that time.
- Here is an ¡§art portrait¡¨ of a camouflaged Sonia which flying above tropical
jungle. Please check this site
- http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~t-kyoji/cl-pln5/330M99Bomb.html
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 12:31 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (C. C. Cheng)
-
- C.C.,
- The reason why I support the blue is because according to late Ichiro Hasegawa
(a very authorative researcher on the subject who had been a modeller since
- pre-war days) there are testimonies regarding the quality of the paint - that
the blue paint was of good quality and did not flake off easily. Besides, the
IJAAF did have a stock of blue paint which they used for markings as well as
the early-war blue border between the camoflage. In the new Model Art IJAAF bomber book, Shigeru Nohara says he has seen a
color photo taken after the war (which cannot be published at this time) that
had a Ki49 which was painted blue. So I just do not see a reason to deny its existence.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <Kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 3:57 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (Hiroyuki
Takeuchii)
-
- Hi, Takeuchi-san.
- You took the words right out of my mouth. For those of you who have access to
old Koku-Fans, check out April 1988 issue, pages 46-47. There's an attractive
- illustration of a Ki21 Sally in this dark blue scheme, by Mr. Ichiro Hasegawa.
He also mentions about the high quality blue paint that rarely flaked off.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 4:29 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (Hiroyuki
Takeuchii)
-
- Konishiwa Hiroyuki and Tennesse,
- I agree fully with you both...
- Another reason to agree is the fact that Taiwan based units were not the only
ones of IJAAF to be submitted to salt air and the different green shades used
were never reported to fade this blue way... So I am inclined to reject Mark's
theory. The only (very doubtful) possibility should have been that the green
paint used was locally produced and specifically faded that way... Mostly improbable...
By the way Hiroyuki points out a very interesting fact: some pre-war
camouflages did use blue paint as a separator between the other shades so stocks were already at hand.
I once discussed with Hiroyuki of an hypothesis: as Taiwan was the home of
- many IJNAF units, including some equiped with Kawanishi made planes. Knowing
that the Kawanishi green is generally depicted as a more blueish variant of
- the IJNAF upper surfaces green, I suggested that IJAAF units may have borrowed
this shade from Navy units... Hiroyuki observed that knowledgeable witnesses
- exist of the blue shade. I think there are no reason to doubt it existed.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: C. C. Cheng <cheng.150@osu.edu>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 5:24 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (Hiroyuki
Takeuchii)
-
- Dear Hiroyuki
- Thank you for the information. That¡¦s really exciting, I guess I should build
a ¡§hometown special¡¨ camouflaged IJA a/c some other day. Actually I also got a reference book ¡§camouflage & Markings of Imperial
Japanese Army Fighters¡¨. The illustrations are provided the Hasegawa Ichiro
you mentioned(the texture description is provided by Akimoto). Some color pattern chips are listed in this book. If Hasegawa san is right, the dark blue
should be mixed by 90% blue; 5% white and 5% black(Gunze Sanyo¡¦s Mr. Color
series). Another question is about what¡¦s the duration of the dark blue applied? When
did it start? Did it last to the end of the War?
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 7:38 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (François P.
WEILL)
-
- Hi Francois,
- Hope you're well... Just to be sure about this, you mentioned the Kawanishi
green as being "bluish". I have not seen the artwork that Tennessee and Hiroyuki have mentioned, in my mind this is a blue similar to the blue seen on
say, Hellcats. When you say that the Kawanishi paint had a blue quality to it,
is this "really" blue, or what was mentioned a few weeks back about the definition of blue and green in Japan? (traffic lights, etc.)
I agree with you, Hiroyuki and Tennessee, the units using blue makes sense,
even more so if this paint was of a higher quality and lasted longer.
- Take care,
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <Kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
- Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (Dan Salamone)
-
- Hi, Dan.
- The blue used on Mr. Hasegawa's art work is not as dark as US navy blue, but
it is definitely dark blue. The green used on Kawanishi aircraft supposedly
had a bluish hue COMPARED TO IJN GREEN USED BY OTHER MANUFACTURERS, but it was
definitely green and not blue. I hope this helps.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
- Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 7:20 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (C. C. Cheng)
-
- I will have to check about the Ki51, but the Ki43 of 20th Sentai is said to
have started using blue paint after they pulled out from the Philippines, so
that's in early 1945. Considering the supply shortage, perhaps they painted
blue just because they had a supply of the paint they could get their hands on
and not necessarily becuase they wanted blue.
-
- Re: Nichimo Sonia
-
- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <Kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
- Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 8:38 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Nichimo Sonia (C. C. Cheng)
-
- Hi, Gentlemen
- I don't know about Ki51, but according to Mr.Ichiro Hasegawa, he saw the Ki21
camouflaged in dark blue at Gan-no-su Army airfield in mainland Japan in fall
- of 1944.
-
-
- Posted By: Andre Dorion <dora9@videotron.ca>
- Date: Sunday, 8 October 2000, at 3:21 p.m.
-
- I am looking for pictures or drawings of the Ki-51 cockpit interior. Can anyone help me?
-
- Re: Ki-51 interior details
-
- Posted By: Peter Mossong <mossong@clear.net.nz>
- Date: Tuesday, 10 October 2000, at 2:24 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Ki-51 interior details (Andre
Dorion)
-
- Andre - have sent some scans to you from the 'Mechanism of Military Aircraft' series book which covers the Ki51.
- These books are the cheaper and smaller version of 'Maru Mechanics'. Hope they are what you are looking for.
-
- Re: Ki-51 interior details
-
- Posted By: Charles Metz <c-metz@uchicago.edu>
- Date: Monday, 9 October 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Ki-51 interior details (Andre
Dorion)
-
- Andre,
- The Maru Mechanic on the Ki-51 is by far the best reference I've seen:
- ------: 'Mitsubishi Ki-51' (Maru Mechanic series, No. 35; Maru [Japan], 1982; in Japanese; 80 pages; approximate value US$30 [out of print]) -- AIRCRAFT TYPES INCLUDED: Mitsubishi Ki-51 (Sonia); COCKPIT DETAIL: Ki-51 (p. 1-3, 22-25, 39); MISCELLANEOUS DETAIL: Ki-51, including engine (p. 41); CUTAWAY DRAWINGS: Ki-51 (p. 4, 5); MULTI-VIEW DRAWINGS: Ki-51 (fold-out); SPECIFIC MARKING PROFILES: Ki-51
- Hobbylink Japan lists a reprint of this book entitled "Mechanism of Military Aircraft #6: Mitsubishi Ki-45 & Ki-51" in their on-line catalog on the page at
(http://www.hlj.com/cgi-local/manmenu2.cgi?manufacture=KJS).
- The only other published information I've seen on the Sonjia's cockpit can be found on page 111 of 'Imperial Japanese Army Warplanes,' by Nohara (Illustrated Warplane History series, No. 6; Green Arrow [Japan], 1997; in Japanese; 212 pages; US$35). HobbyLink Japan lists this book at
(http://216.167.50.224/cgi-local/manmenu2.cgi?manufacture=GRA).
- Hoping this helps,
-
- Re: Ki-51 interior colours?
-
- Posted By: Phil <Phil_Graf@baylor.edu>
- Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 1:25 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Ki-61 1d interior colours? (François P.
WEILL)
-
- What about the Sonia? I have the Mania double kit, and was wondering what the interior color should be, because all the instructions are in Japanese.
-
- Re: Ki-51 interior colours?
-
- Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
- Date: Friday, 29 September 2000, at 4:42 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Ki-51 interior colours? (Phil)
-
- Hi Phil,
- As a Mitsubishi product it has received the corresponding Mitsubishi interior color... As far as I know the Army planes interior color for Mitsubishi planes was similar to the one for Navy planes, hence a darker variant of USN Interior green (FS 34158. In 1/72nd scale 34158 will be OK.
- Hope it helps.
-
-
- Posted By: Phil <Phil_Graf@baylor.edu>
- Date: Friday, 8 September 2000, at 12:06 p.m.
-
- Is there something valuable about this kit? It comes with two Ki-51s in one box, produced by Mania. I'm bidding on one on Ebay, and noticed that people seem to go after the few of these kits that have come up like pigs to the slop. Is this kit more valuable to own than to build?
-
- Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit
-
- Posted By: Mike Driskill <kyofu@aol.com>
- Date: Saturday, 9 September 2000, at 10:28 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Mania Ki-51 double kit (Phil)
-
- In my experience, these kits are fairly common and do not generate tremendous interest in the real world of used kit vendors at model shows, etc. Only in the bizarre climate of Ebay! There is no actual difference in the two kits in the box, by the way, just an optional recon camera that you either install or omit.
- Mania also made a double-kit of the Kate. This one SHOULD have been valuable, because it included both the B5N1 and B5N2. The former version was unavailable for 15+ years until Hasegawa finally re-released it. But they never seemed to bring much either--apparently people didn't realize how different the two variants were.
- Mania was a small company that produced several superb aircraft kits. They went out of business and Hasegawa bought all their molds. In addition to the Sonia and Kates, the other ex-Mania 1/72 Haseys are the Ki-48 Lily, Ki-27 Nate, and the Ki-15-I
Babs.
- Mania's first kit was the 1/72 Nate. It was first released in an unmarked corrugated cardboard box, with about 20 decal markings options! Great kit, crappy marketing!
- Mania's last kit was a 1/48 Nate which is also in the Hasegawa line.
-
- Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit
-
- Posted By: Tim Hortman <thortman@epix.net>
- Date: Friday, 8 September 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Mania Ki-51 double kit (Phil)
-
- Phil,
- I think that it is the "collector" value coming out. FWIW, the Hasegawa kits in 1/72 are the same molds. If you have those, you don't really need the Mania kits unless you like them for a collectible value.
- HTH,
-
- Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit
-
- Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
- Date: Sunday, 10 September 2000, at 7:56 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit (Tim
Hortman)
-
- Randy -
- Did Hasegawa enhance the molds in any way. I have several copies of almost all of the Mania kits (including the plain cardboard Ki-27's) that I bought back in the 70's. I have been wondering if the Hasegawa issues have any improvements. If not, then I can save a few dollars on my hobby.
- Thanks
-
- Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit
-
- Posted By: Randy <r.stone.eal@juno.com>
- Date: Monday, 11 September 2000, at 12:36 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit (Grant
Goodale)
-
- Hi Grant:
- I have Mania kit releases of all their stuff though not immediately handy. If I get off my duff and catalog my collection it would make things easier for us all. Anyway, I believe -- taking the Lily as an example -- that Hasegawa just put the same molds in a new box and dropped the little extras Mania had supplied like separate decal bags and the little color inserts like what Otaki used to do. Then we got the decal changes and the I-go, but to my knowledge, that's it. Usually, when I find Mania kits they are cheap and I just inspect for lost parts and snag them. As you know there was a time when a Lily was quite rare but those days are over. As for the new Lily I have heard it is nothing to write home about, but then the -II could have been converted from the -I with ease anyway, so what's the big deal? To answer your question briefly: save your money, Hasegawa just got free mileage out of the Mania molds.
-
- Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit
-
- Posted By: Mike Driskill <kyofu@aol.com>
- Date: Sunday, 10 September 2000, at 9:03 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Mania Ki-51 double kit (Grant
Goodale)
-
- As far as I can tell, no changes, though Hasegawa's new Ki-48-II Lily may have some mods (I haven't seen one yet).
- IMHO it's worth picking up the Hasey versions cheap from Squadron or show vendors or whatever though, just so you don't have to trash the neat old Mania boxes...
-
- Posted By:
Don Waldo <dwaldo@treavelers.com>
- Date:
Tuesday, 2 April 2002, at 11:44 a.m.
-
- Would the
bomb load weight and/or distribution been modified
- to any great
extent for use in conventional anti-shipping roles or was this aircraft simply
pressed into service against shipping as the need arose?
-
- I would
think that the standard light load and the type of bombs carried would have
been pretty ineffective against even the smallest of allied ships.
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
Hiroyuki Takeuchi
- Date:
Thursday, 4 April 2002, at 2:03 a.m.
-
- In Response
To: KI-51 Armament (Don Waldo)
-
- They were
modified to take a single 250kg bomb under the fuselage for kamikaze missions.
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Wednesday, 3 April 2002, at 6:13 a.m.
-
- In Response
To: KI-51 Armament (Don Waldo)
-
- 6th FB used
a single type 94 100kg bomb in shipping attacks at Leyte Gulf.
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
Don Waldo <dwaldo@treavelers.com>
- Date:
Thursday, 4 April 2002, at 10:31 a.m.
-
- In Response
To: Re: KI-51 Armament (richard dunn)
-
- Thanks to
both of you.I know that a submarine was supposed to have been sunk by Ki-51's.Are
there any other known sinkings by Sonia's anywheres??
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Thursday, 4 April 2002, at 3:31 p.m.
-
- In Response
To: Re: KI-51 Armament (Don Waldo)
-
- Let me amend
my previous answer. Some of the 6th FB type 99 assault bombers carried two
100kg bombs in Leyte attacks.
-
- I'm rather
new to looking into the operations of the Ki 51 as an anti-shipping aircraft so
first...I don't know about sinkings.
-
- Despite my
innocence with respect to your question, I'll mention that at about 0830 on
October 24th, 1944, the 4th Air Army sent about 80 aircraft to attack ships in
Leyte Gulf. Eight of these were type 99 assault a/c from 65th FR. A number of
JAAF a/c got through to make shipping attacks. Two were the 65th Regimental CO
Capt. Kitamaura and his wingman. They claimed hits on a destroyer which they
said was left in flames. Both Ki 51s were hit and limped back to their main
base at Lipa, Luzon rather than their operating base at Bacolod.
-
- The skipper
of one Liberty ship recounts this 0830 attack and says he saw 12
"Bettys" fly over the mountains to make the attack with nine seen to
be shot down. He also mentions an attack by two aircraft which may or may or
may not have been part of the group of 12 "Bettys." His description
is unclear. These attacked and were seen leaving the area on fire. Just
possibly these were the two damaged Ki 51s. These a/c hit an LCI.
-
- During these
attacks the Liberty ship Augustus Thomas was hit and beached becoming a total
loss. The ocean going tug Sonoma was sunk as was LCI-1065. It is just possible
the the LCI was the "destroyer" claimed by the Ki 51s. Their report
claims, among other damage, one hit on the destroyer's conning tower. An LCI is
narrow like a DD and has a prominant superstructure.
-
- I'm not at
all certain about this but thought I'd proffer a possible sinking. Perhaps
someone else has more specifics.
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
Tony Feredo <tferedo@yahoo.com>
- Date:
Thursday, 4 April 2002, at 4:19 p.m.
-
- In Response
To: Re: KI-51 Armament (richard dunn)
-
- Any ideas on
the markings of these Ki-51s? I am interested to find out..
-
- Re:
KI-51 Armament
-
- Posted By:
richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
- Date:
Thursday, 4 April 2002, at 5:41 p.m.
-
- In Response
To: Re: KI-51 Armament (Tony Feredo)
-
- I'm not a
markings guy. Perhaps Jim Lansdale or some of our other experts can help us
out. I have no documentary evidence on the unit markings of 6th FB a/c. Some of
the published works which seem comprehensive have nothing on 65th FR type 99
assault planes for this era. This may be a bit of a mystery but then somebody
who visits this board may have the answers.
-
-
- Posted By:
Larry Engesath <lengesath@cox.net>
- Date:
Sunday, 21 July 2002, at 9:53 a.m.
-
- Are there
any aftermarket decals for this kit? Mine were in very bad shape. Also, is
there any good reference material available on this bird, for detailing
purposes? A Google search didn't really turn up much. I also searched the old
messages here, and only found one thread.
-
- Re:
Nichimo 1/48 Ki-51
-
- Posted By:
Kevin Hensel <hense@voicenet.com>
- Date:
Monday, 22 July 2002, at 5:47 p.m.
-
- In Response
To: Nichimo 1/48 Ki-51 (Larry Engesath)
-
- There is a
Maru Mechanic on the Ki-51 that will provide you with all the details you could
possible want on the Sonia. The trick is to find one. You might want to try
Hobbylink Japan or some other internet vendor.
-
- Re:
Nichimo 1/48 Ki-51
-
- Posted By:
Rob Graham - the ReiShikiSenGuy
- Date:
Sunday, 21 July 2002, at 6:59 p.m.
-
- In Response
To: Nichimo 1/48 Ki-51 (Larry Engesath)
-
- I picked up
a set of Special Attack Squadron decals, and there's one set of Sonia markings
in there, as I recall. Not many schemes are available, though.
-
-