IJNAF Colors

It seems that IJN used two different orange colors for the prototypes/trainers (for example,after examinating photographs, the orange used on the Seiran prototype seems darker than the one used on other prototypes such as the Judy or the Ginga).

What's the real story ?

Thanks for the information !

J.C. DANIS

Re: Training/prototype orange

Posted By: joe taylor <mailto:jtaylor@bhfs.bellhowell.com?subject=Re: Training/prototype orange>

Date: Friday, 4 August 2000, at 12:50 p.m.

In Response To: Training/prototype orange (DANIS Jean-Charles)

Peter Fearis, regular contributor here, passed on the formula for a 1/72 Willow by Modelbud he did. His advise which i intend to follow for my Nichimo Spruce (Dave Pluth helped also)He states: "The best info I can give you is what I have uncovered. The interior is linen in colour, very similar to the colour of PC casings. I painted my interior Humbrol 132 first then misted the linen over the top so the orange was shown as a hint. The frame work is gloss black. Seats and supports n/metal. Instrument panels very dark grey or wood brown, that ones up to you both are correct. Seat harnesses are tan/ or off white, again your choice. Exterior colour. Humbrol 132 is an excellent choice for factory fresh or nearly new. I would advise however that you mix yellow 24? in by about 25% volume, until you get a shade you are happy with."

joe.

Re: Training/prototype orange

Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <mailto:kinson-garments@on.aibn.com?subject=Re: Training/prototype orange>

Date: Thursday, 3 August 2000, at 7:57 p.m.

In Response To: Training/prototype orange (DANIS Jean-Charles)

Hi, J.C.

I recall reading somewhere that the oranges used on prototypes/trainers faided and discoloured easily, resulting in aircraft in various shades of orange. I'm sure there were also variations according to which batch of paints were used. I don't think there were any specific orders such as assigning darker shades of oranges to prototypes.

IHTH

Tennessee

Re: Training/prototype orange

Posted By: Skawinski Michal <mailto:skawinsk@polbox.com?subject=Re: Training/prototype orange>

Date: Thursday, 3 August 2000, at 3:38 p.m.

In Response To: Training/prototype orange (DANIS Jean-Charles)

I think, that different shades of orange are effect of different types of films photographers used (for example orthochromatic), weather, insolation, fading of colors and hundreds of other factors. But maybe different shades of orange (as of many other colors varying between manufacturers) really existed...

Best regards,

Michal

Re: Training/prototype orange

Posted By: Urs Bopp <mailto:bopp@datanetworks.ch?subject=Re: Training/prototype orange>

Date: Wednesday, 9 August 2000, at 12:42 p.m.

In Response To: Training/prototype orange (DANIS Jean-Charles)

Jean-Charles

The hue of trainer orange was the focus of discussions on this board some time ago. Luckily, the postings containing some colour references are still on the message board (thanks to the board moderator!) at:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/bbs/army_config.pl?read=460

http://www.j-aircraft.com/bbs/army_config.pl?read=464

http://www.j-aircraft.com/bbs/army_config.pl?read=904

In his posting Jim Lansdale mentioned the possibility of different colours for Army and Navy. Perhaps Jim could verify the findings in the meantime??

IHTH

Urs Bopp

Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW

Posted By: Bill Sanborn <mailto:lotsabooks@msn.com?subject=Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW>
Date: Sunday, 31 December 2000, at 11:59 p.m.

"The KI-9 (and KI-17) was called "Akatonbo" [sic] because almost all of its surface except the cowling and a part of the fuselage was painted orange." - Japanese Military aircraft Illustrated Vol. 3, page 84(page 86 for KI-17).

It my understanding that Akatombo translates as "red dragonfly" and refers to the planes painted in trainer orange and not the color. Using akatombo for the color of the trainer is like calling the color of the A6M , reisen, or using the name, hamaki, for the color of the G4M. Or am I off base?

IMHO, Without malice,
Bill

Re: Akatonbo

Posted By: Rob Graham <mailto:reishikisenguy@aol.com?subject=Re: Akatonbo>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 9:32 p.m.

In Response To: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW (Bill Sanborn)

Bill:

Akatonbo is technically correct, but it's hard to say the "nb" sound, so Akatombo is an accepted English spelling. So, either is correct. Broken down phonetically, the Japanese word would be A-Ka-To-N-Bo. Note, coincidentally, that you can have a McDonald's Hamburger in the English; but in Japanese, it's written in Katakana, and it's spelled Ma-Ku-Do-Na-Ru-Do Ha-N-Ba-Ga. The "N" sound has its own written character. A bit o' trivia, to be sure.

I have no relics or anything to compare, but it seems to me the word "akatombo" is one of those rather nebulous words which may evoke many different mental images.

FWIW, I used to think it would be a bright color - like the Fujimi and LS kit colors - but now see the Munsell matches by Owaki-San and Jim Lansdale show a bit of a less riotous appearance. These Munsell matches are orange, but not the shocking eyesore shades the kit makers and artists often showed. And these Munsell relic matches did vary a bit, so you are probably right, that these "Akatombo" colors will make for points of argument for future generations.

Take care,
--Rob

Re: Akatonbo

Posted By: Rob Graham <mailto:reishikisenguy@aol.com?subject=Re: Akatonbo>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 10:15 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Akatonbo (Rob Graham)

OK, and as I was poking around, I saw this Christmas Day, 1998 posting:

General Japanese Aircraft

Trainer/Experimental Orange-Yellows

Posted By: Katsushi Owaki
Date: Friday, 25 December 1998, at 4:36 p.m.

Yellow/Orange is very faded color.An J8M1/403 example was heavily wethered and oxicidized.The following analyzed colors are not original bright but faded toward dull.Trainer/Exmental a/c color was called as "Touoh-shoku"(Orange-Yellow),both IJAAF and IJNAF.

10R5/14...FS12246...deep yellow red...yellow red
2.5YR6/14...Orange-Yellow...MA#272/Kaigun Sentoki...freshly yellow red...yellow red
2.5YR6/14...FS12473...freshly yellow red...yellow red
5YR7/14...IFF...MA#242/Zero...freshly yellow red...yellow red
5YR7/12...Yellow-Orange...MA#428/Ki61/Ki100...light yellow red...yellow red
5YR6/14...IFF...MA#272/Kaigunn Sentoki...freshly yellow red...yellow red
5YR6/12...IFF...MA#329/Rikugun Sentoki...yellow red...yellow red
5YR6/12...K5Y1...Nakagawa Collection...yellow red...yellow red
5YR6/12...Yellow Orange...MA#378/Shinjuwan Kogekitai...yellow red...yellow red
7.5YR7/14...IFF...MA#263/Ki61...freshly reddish yellow...reddish yellow
7.5YR7/14...IFF...A6M5c/82729/FS13432...Arashiyama...freshly reddish yellow...reddish yellow
10YR7.5/11.5...IFF...A6M5/4444...Kahi Collection...reddish yellow...reddish yellow
10YR6/10...J8M1/403...Plane of Fame...deep reddish yellow..reddish yellow
2.5Y8/14...Prop Warn/A6M5c/82729/FS23655...Arashiyama...freshly yellow...yellow
2.5Y7/12...A6M5/4444/FS13637...Kahi Collection...yellow...yellow
2.5Y6/7...J8M1/403...Plane of Fame...dull yellow...yellow
3.1Y8.3/15.6...A6M5c/82729...Arashiyama...freshly yellow...yellow

Katsushi Owaki

Would there be any interest in a chip comparison as Ihave done with other colors?

--Rob

Re: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 6:47 a.m.

In Response To: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW (Bill Sanborn)

Hi Bill

I agree. One should properly say "'like' akatombo orange" or "'like' akatombo orange-red" or "'like' akatombo yellow-orange!"

You just never know when the "teminology police" (who work in consort with the "color police") may be around and ticket you for using misleading and confusing color descriptions! (;>)

IMHO and FWIW.

Happy New Year!

Jim Lansdale

Re: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 12:13 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Akatombo-An opinion, FWIW (James F. Lansdale)

Konnichi wa,
although I mentioned the same subject in another posting and received no answer, I would like to comment that the word "akatombo" was used as a nickname for the Type 93 intermediate trainer because of it's overall colour scheme. It was not meant to describe the colour that the plane was painted. The above is also mentioned in FAOW 44 on the above mentioned plane.

I would like to kindly ask Lansdale sama to let us know why he is using the word "akatombo" to describe the "trainner orange" colour. Is this word used in any official paper? Is it used by Japanese sources? I haven't encoudered this word in any Japanese book.

Excuse my ignorance,
George

Re: Origins of the Term "Akatonbo" & Color

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: Origins of the Term 'Akatonbo' & Color>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 4:14 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Origins of the Term "Akatonbo" & Color *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Domo Lansdale sama for clearing the subject. Certainly the correct way to write "akatonbo" is with a "n" not an "m", since, if you write it in Hiragana you will have to use "n". But notice that it is not pronounced with a clear "n" as let's say, in "bank", but it's pronounced something between "n" and "m". Pronunciation details...if I would like to correct "mistakes" in Japanese language, I would prefair to notice in a quite strong way, that the mountain is not called "Fuji yama" but "Fuji san", that the ritual is not called "harakiri" but "sepuku" e.t.c., e.t.c.

So, "akatonbo" is the "trainer orange" colour and the nickname of some(?) trainers. I don't see any controversy Sanborn san but thank you very much for pointing it out.

Domo,
George

Soryu Blue?

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Soryu Blue?>

Date: Monday, 26 June 2000, at 8:13 p.m.

Hi everyone,

In English there are several widely accepted descriptions for various shades of the color blue. For instance 'midnight' blue is a very dark blue color, 'royal' blue is a dark blue, 'electric' blue is a very bright shade and 'baby'or 'powder' blue are terms for light pastel shades. David Aiken and I have been discussing the colors of the fuselage bands and command stripes of A6M2s of the carrier Soryu during the period from December, 1941 to June, 1942. Soryu means 'Blue Dragon'. Is there a 'dragon' blue term in Japanese that describes a certain shade? The reason I ask this question is that a photo of Soryu and Hiryu A6M2s at Kendari, Borneo in March of 1942 shows that the Soryu planes have much lighter identification bands than the Hiryu planes parked next to them. Thanks in advance!

Cheers!

Greg

Re: Soryu Blue? (Amended)

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>

Date: Wednesday, 28 June 2000, at 5:28 a.m.

In Response To: Soryu Blue? (Greg Springer)

Greg

I have a piece of tubing removed from a Nakajima built G3M3 Nell s/n 8328 at Lae. It has two shades of blue. While not answering your question directly, it is evidence of the blue paint used by the Japanese navy at the time. I have not done a colorimetric analysis nor compared the colors to the more exacting Munsell standards. However, for what it is worth, the two colors of blue (which may be due to weathering of the darker blue to a lighter blue) are:

darker blue: close to FS-15050 (Jim LONG saw this color as FS-25053)

lighter blue: close to FS-25184

Jim Lansdale

P.S. After originally posting this message, I checked a piece of a Blayd owned (ex DIEMERT) Nakajima built A6M2 landing gear cover sent by Ryan TOEWS. As I see it, the color of the warning stripe on the cover is FS-25053 faded in parts to FS-25184. Ryan's analysis was that the color compared favorably to FS-x5080 and it had been "painted by brush."

Re: Soryu Blue?

Posted By: Ryutaro Nambu <mailto:ryutaro.nambu@jal.co.jp?subject=Re: Soryu Blue?>

Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 5:08 a.m.

In Response To: Soryu Blue? (Greg Springer)

To my knowledge, there is no such Japanese words as "dragon blue" that can be identified with any specific shade of blue. But that does not rule out the possibility that the aircraft on board Soryu wore ID bands in a lighter shade.

Another possibility is, what looks like a light blue ID band was actually an ID band MASKED OFF by hai-ryokushoku, the base overall color. A fresh layer is very likely to look darker than the weathered surfaces. Why the band had to be blanked off, I don't know.

Either way, it is very difficult to determine from B&W photos.

Let's see what other guys are thinking.

Re: Soryu Blue?

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <mailto:pchalmers@carolina.rr.com?subject=Re: Soryu Blue?>

Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 5:59 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Soryu Blue? (Ryutaro Nambu)

Blue will also appear very light if photographed with ortho film.

Re: We've got the Soryu Blues!

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: We've got the Soryu Blues!>

Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 6:30 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Soryu Blue? (Pete Chalmers)

Aloha All,

The LATE MARCH 1942 Kendari, Borneo photo in Mikesh: Zero [Motorbooks] shows BI-151 and other Soryu planes on the right and Hiryu planes on the left. The Hiryu planes have a significantly darker shade of blue than the Soryu planes so the type film is not the factor. Iyozo Fujita identified BI-151 as his new Zero received while at Kendari. A similar shot light density for a Soryu plane is in the Hata/Izawa ACE book, of BI-185, also at Kendari.

However, a shot in the MARU Operations Special #95 shows Soryu Zeros BEFORE the swap for new Zeros. These have the same density of tone as the above cited Hiryu Zeros. The caption says, I think, the photo was taken in MID-MARCH, thus before the swap for new planes.

The problem is: what blues were being used?

Robert Louis Stevenson was building his home on Samoa. He wrote his friend, the artist Paul Gauguin, who was living on Tahiti, "For a little workroom of my own in the back, I should like rather to see some patterns of unglossy -well, I'll be hanged if I can describe this red- it's not Turkish and it's not Roman and it's not Indian, but it seems rather to partake of the two last, and yet it can't be either of them because it ought to be able to go with vermilion." Thus description of colors by name will fail, at least we have various swatch systems to help -with FS595 being the easiest to obtain for those of us with a small billfold.

Dare I say, the Soryu/Hiryu blue difference at Kendari may be Royal vs Medium Blue? But is it? Iida's Soryu crash has not yielded any blue souvenirs yet, all other Soryu crashes were at sea, thus we don't have samples of Soryu blue stripes from Pearl Harbor available yet. The Hiryu blue seems a dark color on BII-120 and BII-124, but what shade?

TIA for responces!

Cheers,

David Aiken

Re: Soryu/Hiryu Blues are not faded!

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Soryu/Hiryu Blues are not faded!>

Date: Wednesday, 28 June 2000, at 11:12 a.m.

In Response To: Re: We've got the Soryu Blues! (David_Aiken)

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your great observation. I've attached a portion of the photo, from Mikesh: ZERO [Motorbooks], so you may observe the topic better. The Soryu plane on the right has a light fuselage stripe while the Hiryu planes have dark stripes.

As the stripe color for the Soryu planes on the right of the photo are so light and the Hiryu planes are so dark, the thought of orthochromatic film was discounted, this also included the thought of fading. If they were faded, how come only the Soryu planes were thus faded? The identification of the Soryu planes as new replacements by Iyozo Fujita further confirms the planes were not faded.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

David

Tamiya IJN Grey

Posted By: Pablo <mailto:pablogmalo@movi.com.ar?subject=Tamiya IJN Grey>
Date: Sunday, 30 July 2000, at 7:50 p.m.

I am building an Hasegawa Zero, and I chose Tamiya paints for it, as I like the way they airbrush.
I painted today the undersurfaces with JN Gray, but I notice it's kind of a greenish gray.
Is this color correct?
Did anybody use it?
Thank you al

Re: Tamiya IJN Grey

Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi
Date: Sunday, 30 July 2000, at 8:47 p.m.

In Response To: Tamiya IJN Grey (Pablo)

There is a major controversy regarding the color of the Zero so I don't think you can tell whether a certain color is correct or not correct at this point.
However, when I visited Mr. Saburo Sakai, he showed me a piece of the A6M2 V-103 found recently in Guadalcanal. He said the piece seemed too pale (due to oxidation), but that it regains the correct color when wet. The wet piece looked much like the Tamiya color.
So the Tamiya color is still a valid representation although there are other opinions.
Happy modeling.

Re: Tamiya IJN Grey

Hi Pablo,
I use Tamiya IJN Grey on my Japanese Naval a/c models and they turn out well. I do mix colors sometimes but most of the time, I usually stay with the Tamiya shade.
Happy Modelling,

Re: Tamiya IJN Grey

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Tamiya IJN Grey>
Date: Monday, 31 July 2000, at 7:09 a.m.

In Response To: Tamiya IJN Grey (Pablo)

Pablo
For a great article by Yoshihito KUROSU regarding the colors of gray used by the IJNAF, follow the link below.

Jim Lansdale

IJNAF Gray

OUT OF AMEIRO CLOUD INTO HAI-RYOKUSHOKU SKY

by Yoshihito Kurosu

translation by Ryutaro Nambu

1. KNOWN FACTS

1.1. Birth of Reisen and its Background

In 1937, Mitsubishi started the development of A6M1 12-shi Kanjo Sentoki (Type 12 Experimental Carrier Fighter). The 12 corresponds to 1937, the twelfth of Showa era under Emperor Hirohito's rein.

In that same year, 1937, IJN imported thirty (or twelve) He-112 fighters from Germany, and gave them a fighter designation "A7He1". Those He-112s were painted in RLM63 Grungrau.

The first prototype of 12-shi (pronounced "ju-ni-shi") flew in April 1939, followed by the second machine in October 1939. The third machine, with a new Sakae engine, was completed around December 1939 or January 1940. Deviating from IJN's standard orange color for experimental and prototype aircraft, Mitsubishi painted those prototype machines in "hai-ryokushoku" (literally ash green, meaning greenish ash). [see Appendix B: Color Names in Japanese]

In July 1940, IJN adopted A6M2 officially as Rei-shiki Kanjo Sentoki (Type 0 Carrier Fighter). The "0" (pronounced "rei") in the designation means 2600 in the Japanese Imperial era, which translates into 1940AD. (Similarly, 99 of D3A means 2599 or 1939AD.) Exact translation of "kanjo" is on-shipboard or embarked.

Before IJN introduced Rei-shiki Kanjo Sentoki (often dubbed Reisen or rather colloquially Zero-sen), it used to paint its carrier fighters in silver overall. No gray examples were known. Apart from carrier fighters, Aichi D3A Type 99 Carrier Dive Bomber (99-kanbaku), Mitsubishi F1M Type 0 Observation Seaplane (Reikan), and Aichi E13A Type 0 Reconnaissance Seaplane (Reisuitei) were possibly painted in "mei-kaishoku" (light ash, IJA notation "J1". Some people call that color "mei-kai-hakushoku" or "mei-hai-hakushoku" (literally light ash white, meaning light whitish ash).

No IJN documents known today state that protective clear topcoat was applied to Zeros or to any other navy fighters. Among the existing photos of Mitsubishi A5M Type 96 Carrier Fighter (96-kansen), a few machines seem to have somewhat darker shade than the ordinary silver finish. Some researchers speculate that the darker look was from a possible application of tinted topcoat. It may as well be attributed, however, to photographic conditions such as light, exposure, film characteristics, use of filter, and development process. IJN veterans remarked, as I overheard from a reliable researcher, that they had seen Type 96s with a field-applied protective topcoat of slightly tinted varnish (or dope?). But there is no evidence whatsoever that Zero received a similar topcoat.

1.2. Kugiho No. 0266 report

IJN's Kugisho (short for Koku Gijutsu Sho or Air Engineering Arsenal) carried out a series of camouflage test at Yoko-ku (short for Yokosuka Kaigun Kokutai or Yokosuka Navy Air Group) between November 1941 and February 1942. Kugisho summarized the test results in "Kugiho"[Air Engineering Report] No. 0266: Research on Camouflage for Type 0 Carrier Fighter (Research on Aircraft Color Schemes)". The 0266 was navy's classified document, of which perhaps less than a hundred copies should have existed. A copy, known to be the only one existing today, is in a private collection and not disclosed.

In the 0266, two grays, J2 ("sei-kaishoku" or bluish ash) and J3 ("haiiro" or ash), were reported, together with greens. Sample color chips were attached to the 0266 copy, but their tones have not been confirmed by matching to FS, Munsell, or Methuen chips, as the current owner does not disclose them. J1 was not tested in the 0266, and no color chip was attached. IJN's standard colors, including J1, J2, and J3, were originally glossy. Additives were used to give the colors matte finish in the tests.

In search of an effective camouflage scheme, the Kugisho team compared the experimental colors against the standard Zero scheme. The reporter of the 0266 wrote about the standard Zero color as follows:

"The color of gen-yo Type 0 Carrier Fighters is similar to a J3 (haiiro) slightly tinted with ameiro, but differs from the experimental colors as it has luster."

"Ameiro" in Japanese literally means candy-color or caramel-color, but is commonly used to mean transparent yellowish brown, brown, or light brown, such as honey, maple syrup, and amber. "Gen-yo" translates to "currently in service" or "now in use".

In other parts of the report, the 0266 reporter temporarily called that gen-yo color as "ameiro" or "gen-yo ameiro" for brevity. The report consists of lists and short comments, where nonce words like them may have served well for conciseness. Such use of the word "ameiro" was only temporary and exceptional by the 0266 reporter alone, and no other official IJN documents known today use such expressions, not even a single mention.

1.3. J3 and two-color camouflage

J3 was called "haiiro" (ash) in the 0266. But As I heard directly from two reliable researchers who had seen the existing 0266 color chips, J3 was like RLM63. One of them remarked: "J3 was close to RLM63 in hue, but much lighter than RLM63."

The 0266 concluded from test results that "no-ryoku-kokushoku" (deep greenish black) as an upper surface color had a good camouflage effect from its low visibility.

In July 1943, IJN HQ issued a directive specifying a two-color camouflage scheme. Field application preceded the directive; units on the tropical fronts began practicing a top-side green camouflage since around the summer of 1942.

The colors of the two-color scheme were not strictly kept to the norm. Nakajima's colors were different from Mitsubishi's colors. And the colors may also have varied over time. For instance, Mitsubishi's later color for top-side was a very deep shade of dark green, much darker than its earlier color. Similarly, the lower surface color ranged from haiiro to hai-ryokushoku.

The "Hiko-ki Keikaku You-ryou-sho Kaitei-an" (Proposal for the revisions of aircraft planning procedures) issued by Navy Air Command HQ in March 1944 has a table of standard colors and codes under "Kari-kikaku 117 Shiki-betsu Hyojun" (Provisional Standard 117 Color Norms). The table specified the upper-surface color as D1 "an-ryokushoku" (dark green) and the lower-surface color as J3 "hai-ryokushoku" (greenish ash). Notice that J3's notation was different from the 0266, in which it had been called "haiiro". (I will touch on this difference in Section 3.1.)

The A6M5 Zero Model 52 on display in the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, famous for its strict and precise researches and restoration, is painted in dark green similar to Munsell 10G3/2 on upper surfaces and in light gray similar to Munsell N7.5 on lower surfaces. That particular machine was captured on Saipan Island in April 1944, was sent to the U.S., and underwent an evaluation program with all of its markings and colors stripped for complete inspection. The Museum restored the machine to what a Zero at Saipan should have looked like in early 1944. Although the machine was actually made by Mitsubishi, the Museum painted it in Nakajima color version. The tailcode too was of one of Nakajima-made machines. More information on this machine is available at the Institute's WebPages at: http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/AERO/AIRCRAFT/a6m5zero.htm

1.4. Examinations of relics

Mr. James F. Lansdale made an extensive study of existing Zero relics that he and other researchers matched against FS595b color chips. Mr. Lansdale reports that some samples with weathered or faded surface showed chalky pale gray close to FS36357, FS36492, or FS36495. When the samples were "lightly buffed", as he explains, many of them revealed olive-gray colors (beneath the weathered surfaces) close to FS16350, FS24201, or Munsell 7.8Y5.5/2.5.

2. PERSONAL ACCOUNTS

In his book "Reisen", Jiro Horikoshi, Mitsubishi's chief designer of Zero, recalled: "12-shi was painted in dimly-shining hai-ryokushoku except black engine cowling."

The famous ace pilot Saburo Sakai, who flew Zeros since his early days at 12-ku (short for "Dai 12 Kaigun Kokutai" or 12th Navy Air Group), writes in some of his books that Zero's color was "mei-kaishoku" or light ash. He also writes about his first impression of Zero in his 1992 book "Zerosen no Shinjitsu [The Truth of Zero]" as follows:

"Till then, IJN warplanes always sported brilliant silver overall with bright-red hinomaru. As Zero was introduced, the color scheme changed to haiiro. Zero looked something like aircraft borrowed from some foreign country. In contrast to 96-kansen's sharp and sturdy appearance like a keen-edged sword, Zero looked sleek, smooth, and somewhat feminine."

Mr. Sakai has a light bluish ash sample that corroborates his memories. His sample was taken from the relics of his plane recovered in 1994 from the clear-water swamp near Henderson airfield in Guadalcanal.

In his book "Koga's Zero", Jim Rearden quoted Lieut. Comdr. Eddie R. Sanders, a U.S. Navy pilot who tested the Zero captured at Akutan Island of Aleutian Islands, as reporting: "The original finish was a very smooth light gray, tinted with blue light green." (I think this report quite credible, for it covers technical details of a relatively new machine in its condition soon after the capture.)

I had a chance to talk with a senior modeler, who used to work for Kugisho when he was young. His model of Zero was painted in light greenish ash. He asserted: "As far as I have seen, the early standard color of Reisen is nothing but THIS color. I have never seen a brownish or mei-kaishoku variant. This color was unique to Reisen, and not used for 97-kanko [B5N] or 99-kanbaku [D3A]."

3. CONSIDERATIONS

3.1. J3 versus the "gen-yo" color

To describe J3, Provisional Standard 117 used the notation "hai-ryokushoku" rather than "haiiro". I think 117's notation is more precise and indicative than 0266's notation about the actual tone of J3. It is not inconsistent that J3 actually had a greenish tint and that the 0266 reporter described such color as haiiro; hai-ryokushoku is part of colors broadly categorized as haiiro. Conversely, if J3 had had no green content, then the 117 should have not called it hai-ryokushoku. As the two researchers confirmed, J3 was not a plane gray but a gray with a greenish tint.

Then what about the color of gen-yo Zeros? As I judge from the known facts, it was not a paint batch variation within the J3 specs, but what you may call it "Zero special", a separate color expressly prescribed by Mitsubishi for Zero. (I coined the name "Zero special", which I think is better than the misleading "ameiro". I will explain more on this issue later in Section 3.5.) No matter what you name it, the gen-yo color was a glossy light greenish ash (hai-ryokushoku) slightly brownish or yellow-brownish than the J3 of 0266 sample chip.

It is incorrect to reason that gen-yo Zeros were painted in J1, or that J1 was "ameiro". If J1 had been the standard Zero color, the 0266 reporter should have remarked as such. He should have simply written "The color of gen-yo Type 0 Carrier Fighters is J1, similar to J3 but slightly tinted with ameiro...". Likewise, if J1 had been commonly called "ameiro" then he should have written "The color of gen-yo Type 0 Carrier Fighters is similar to a J3 (haiiro) slightly tinted with J1 (ameiro)...". He did neither. That suggests the gen-yo color was not J1; J1 was not ameiro; and of course, gen-yo color was not ameiro either. Then what could J1 have looked like? I am almost sure that J1 was a plain light gray (mei-kaishoku). A researcher whom I trust said so, and I accept his remark as reasonable.

3.2. Paint aging

Both vehicle and pigments of paint age over years. The vehicle, clear and uncolored when fresh, becomes dull, darkish, brownish, or yellowish. Pigments of some colors are stable, some are fragile, and the speed and the extent of aging vary with colors. Weathered and exposed to sunlight, paint loses its luster in short time, and its surface often becomes chalky. Acid and other chemical substances contained in air, rain, and soil also affect painted surfaces.

I sincerely respect Mr. Lansdale's systematic approach and the hard facts he confirmed. His study gave me a solid ground to build my interpretation on. The relics suggest what the original colors might have looked like.

The relics presumably had been exposed to sunlight and rain or in contact with soil over many years before their recovery. If we "sand" or scrape the weathered surface, instead of just lightly buffing it, the inner layer may reveal a color closer to the original condition. Besides, the inner layer may as well have gone through aging. When assessing original colors from the existing relics, it is always essential to compensate for the aging effect of paint, vehicle in particular. I suppose that the color of the relics looked different from FS16350 or FS24201 in their original, factory-fresh conditions some fifty years back.

3.3. Influence of imported He-112

What made Mitsubishi drop standard orange in favor of hai-ryokushoku for its Zero prototypes? IJN's tests of the imported He-112s coincided with the development of 12-shi. I speculate that Heinkel's RLM63 Grungrau could possibly have influenced Mitsubishi over the color scheme of 12-shi.

3.4. Conclusion

My arguments on the possible range of Zero's early overall color boil down to the following three points. First, it was glossy without any clear topcoat, and close to J3 hai-ryokushoku slightly tinted with ameiro. Second, it was not FS16350 itself, but FS16350 less aging effect. Third, it was close to, but not as dark as, RLM63 Grungrau.

In conclusion, I believe the Zero's early overall color should have been a glossy hai-ryokushoku (light greenish ash) not as dark as FS16350 or RLM63. And that color, "Zero special" as I would call it, was different from J1, a plain light gray, and slightly different from J3, which would later become IJN's standard under-surface color.

I further assess that the tone of J3 as the under-surface color varied, including less greenish and more bluish tones, and that mei-kaishoku (light ash) was sometimes field-applied over the original color on repairs and retouches.

3.5. Ameiro myth

A Japanese illustrator once highlighted the 0266's remark that the color of gen-yo Zero was like "a J3 (gray) slightly tinted with ameiro" and generalized it, without any factual grounds, into an assertion that IJN fighters had usually received a protective topcoat of clear ameiro. Over time, he has toned down his words, became shy to call it "ameiro", and eventually changed the expression to "ryoku-kasshoku (ameiro)". ("Ryoku-kasshoku" means greenish brown in Japanese.)

Shortening "mei-kaishoku tinted with ryoku-kasshoku" (light ash tinted with greenish brown) into just ryoku-kasshoku" is as incorrect and misleading as calling "hai-iro slightly tinted with ameiro" an "ameiro". It is just like calling a gull gray slightly tinted with blue as a mere "blue", or shortening duck egg green to a "duck".

The notation "ryoku-kasshoku (ameiro)" is also improper, as it gives a totally wrong impression that ryoku-kasshoku (greenish brown) is equivalent to ameiro.

Those misuses of words led to misconceptions by researchers and modelers. Quotations and references further compounded the confusions so that even some model makers and paint makers incorrectly cited "ameiro" as IJN's standard color. What a blunder!

Reisen was painted in hai-ryokushoku, not ameiro. This is the reality.

Appendix A: COLOR OF ZERO TRAINERS

Since 1984, a Japanese researcher has repeatedly explained and illustrated in many books and magazines that Zero trainers had been painted in mei-kaishoku or "ameiro". Without checking with primary sources, some model aircraft writers regarded his assertion as a matter of course, and painted their Zero trainers as such. Not very few people have been brainwashed into believing Zero trainers had actually been painted in mei-kaishoku.

In reality, however, IJN had a principle to paint training and experimental aircraft in "tou-ou-shoku" (literally orange yellow but practically orange or mandarin orange; some people call it "ou-tou-shoku" but tou-ou-shoku is the official notation). The principle was set out in Air HQ directive #8777 of 29 December 1938 titled "Renshu-ki Kitai Gaimen Toshoku ni kansuru ken" (Re Outer Airframe Color for Trainers). The directive was reported as stating "...paint prescriptions and color samples are distributed as necessary." The "Riku-kaigun Chuo Kyotei" (Army and Navy Central Agreement) of 15 September 1942 also stated: "Training and experimental aircraft should be painted in ou-shoku [literally yellow but practically orange] wherever conditions permit." The overall orange principle remained effective until superseded by another directive of 3 July 1943. (Mr. Donald W. Thorpe touched on this July 1943 directive in his book "Japanese Naval Air Force Camouflage and Markings WWII".) Of course, no official documents show Zero trainers were painted in mei-kaishoku or hai-ryokushoku. It is barbarous and ridiculous to describe Zero trainers were painted in ameiro.

Some may argue that Zero trainers in B&W photos look similar to Zero fighters in early scheme. But that does not substantiate they actually wore the same color. Orange may as well look like light gray in B&W photos, as can be seen in the existing photos of Yokosuka K5Y Type 93 Intermediate Trainer (93-chu-ren), the biplane commonly dubbed "Aka-tombo" or red dragonfly.

I interviewed an ex-navy engineer, who had used to repair and modify aircraft at 1st Navy Aircraft Arsenal of Tsuchiura, Japan. He asserted: "Type 0 Trainer was painted in tou-oushoku, exactly the same color as used for Type 93 Aka-tombo, a reddish orange. Later, however, the topside changed to dark green." And he countered my question by asking: "Kurosu-san, is there any evidence at all that Zero trainers in mei-kaishoku ever existed?" Of course, I answered "No".

A friend of mine recently showed his 1/72 orange Zero trainer and 1/48 dark-green/orange Zero trainer at a model exhibition in Osaka. Among visitors was an old man, who used to fly Zero fighters at an IJN base in Kyusyu after finishing "Yokaren" (navy's preparatory pilot training course) in 1944. Pointing at his 1/72 orange Zero trainer, the old man said: "It reminds me of those days."

The old man recalled: "Aka-tombo, I mean 93-chu-ren, and rei-rensen (Zero trainer)... they are trainers and therefore were all painted in this color, as far as I saw them." My friend asked if he had ever seen a Zero trainer in haiiro scheme, and the old man replied:

"No, at least in Kyushu, where I stationed, I have never seen Rensen in haiiro. Well, never seen haiiro ones, but I saw, near the end of the war at Kanoya base, many machines with green paint applied over orange. Still then, the under surface was in orange."

Pointing at his 1/48 Rensen in dark-green and orange scheme, the old man continued: "Yeah, just like this. I heard that maintenance crew had painted green on them."

Development of Zero trainer began in 1942. At first, it was temporarily called "17-shi Renshu-yo Sentoki" or Type 17 Experimental Training Fighter. First prototype rolled out in January 1943, and IJN officially adopted it as A6M2-K Rei-shiki Renshu-yo Sento-ki Ichi-ichi-gata (Type 0 Training Fighter Model 11) on 17 March 1944. Between April 1943 and July 1945, 21st Navy Air Arsenal of Nagasaki and Hitachi Aircraft made 515 units.

When Zero trainer entered service in 1943, IJN was introducing, with the effect of the July 1943 directive, the two-color camouflage of topside an-ryokushoku with white-rimmed hinomaru and under surface hai-ryokushoku. Yellow IFF strips on the leading edges of inboard wings became standard then. Zero fighter's early scheme, hai-ryokushoku overall, was already obsolete then.

Early scheme Zero fighters invariably had hinomaru without white rim on the wings, although Nakajima-built machines wore white-rimmed hinomaru on the fuselage. (I suppose that aimed at easy distinction for field maintenance; Nakajima's parts were not fully compatible with Mitsubishi.) By contrast, Zero trainers, like many other navy trainers, always wore white-rimmed hinomaru on the wings and fuselage. That was because, as I suppose, hinomaru had to stand out against the background; the orange overall color needed the white rim.

Zero trainers were not gray or ameiro; they were orange!

Appendix B: COLOR NAMES IN JAPANESE

Japanese language uses three sets of characters: Kanji or Chinese characters imported from ancient China; Hiragana phonetic letters derived from streamlined Kanji manuscripts; and Katakana phonetic letters derived from Kanji components. Most Kanji characters have two ways of pronunciation: Kun-yomi, indigenous Japanese word assigned to Kanji by its meaning; and On-yomi, adopted ancient Chinese sound.

Most color names of Kun-yomi date back to the time before Kanji were imported. Later, Kanji were assigned to those names according to the colors they meant, and On-yomi names emerged from those Kanji, chiefly for official and academic uses.

For example, iro (Kun-yomi) and shoku (On-yomi) both correspond to the Kanji shown left, and mean "color". Many color names in Japanese have a suffix iro or shoku, as in hai-iro and mei-kaishoku.

Kun-yomi names of flowers, plants, animals, and other natural elements often represent intermediate colors. For example, mizu-iro means water color, hence light blue; kitsune-iro means fox color, light brown; tsuchi-iro means earth color, dull brown; and sakura-iro means cherry color, faint pink of Japanese cherry blossom.

Another way to express intermediate colors is by compound names: combination of two elementary colors. For example, a mixture of ash (hai or kai) and green (midori or ryoku) is hai-midori-iro or hai-ryoku-shoku.

Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?

Posted By: Chuck Nimsk <mailto:cnimsk@aol.com?subject=Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?>
Date: Friday, 23 February 2001, at 8:34 p.m.

This is a question for the experts. What is the best match or two, pre-mixed paints, for the Zero ash grey-green color - that is for the color of the A6M2-21's. In particular what is the closest that is made by Model Master, Tamiya, or Polly S paints?

Chuck Nimsk
cnimsk@aol.com

Re: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?>
Date: Friday, 23 February 2001, at 10:55 p.m.

In Response To: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green? (Chuck Nimsk)

Hi Chuck,

The Model Master enamel mix for Zeroes at Pearl Harbor is 20 parts SAC Bomber Tan, 11 parts White, 0.9 parts Zinc Chromate Green. Topcoat with your choice of clearcoat. I like Polyscale. This is the full scale color. Polyscale Acrylic Railroad color 'Concrete' 414317 is similar to a scaled-down version of this but it's a bit more gray. The Japanese word hai-ryoku-shoku means 'gray-green', not 'ash green'. HTH.

Cheers!

Greg

Re: Which ash grey-green?

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Which ash grey-green?>
Date: Friday, 23 February 2001, at 9:58 p.m.

In Response To: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green? (Chuck Nimsk)

Hi Chuck,
That is a good question. WHICH "ash grey-green" are we referencing the brownish color so-called "J3" seen on Iida's relic or the greenish color also known as "J3" seen on that Australian museum drop tank? Both are seen on A6M2 model 21s...in different time frames.

Cheers,
David Aiken

see "Photos"

Re: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?

Posted By: Wayne Little <mailto:walittle@senet.com.au?subject=Re: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green?>
Date: Sunday, 25 February 2001, at 1:47 a.m.

In Response To: Best match pre-mixed for grey-green? (Chuck Nimsk)

Dear Chuck, For what it's worth I made a mix of Tamiya colours (substituting the Gunze colours)from the Val Hasegawa Kit JT55 consisting of
XF49 Khaki 50% + XF53 Neutral Grey 30% + XF3 Yellow 10% +
XF2 White 10%. The resulting colour to my eyes very closely matched the Kaneohe Mitsubishi Zero fragment posted by Jim Lansdale 29 Dec 1:02pm.
Kind Regards Wayne Little

The seat belt color

Posted By: C.C. Cheng <mailto:cheng.150@osu.edu?subject=The seat belt color>
Date: Friday, 11 August 2000, at 9:47 a.m.

Hi All,

What is the color of the seat belt in the cockpit of A6M2b?

I am using the eduard PE to detail my 1/48 zero 21. The set provides 3 seat belt, good. But I cannot find any reference talking about the color of seat belt. I also tried search the message posted these years, seems no one talked about this.

TIA for your kind answer...I am eager to seal the cockpit into the fuselage.

Best regards
C.C. Cheng

Re: The seat belt color

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: The seat belt color>
Date: Thursday, 17 August 2000, at 9:57 p.m.

In Response To: The seat belt color (C.C. Cheng)

I am using the 1/48th A6M2 Zero built by Tamiya as a reference. It calls for the seat to be silver, and the belts to be green. Quite possibly an olive green color, similar to the Parachute harness color on the uniforms of Japanese pilots. Use Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 37-45 page 76 as a reference.

Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green paint?

Posted By: Blaine <mailto:kotonk568@earthlink.net?subject=Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green paint?>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 4:40 p.m.

Okay, I've ordered an FS595B color book and have read all of the studies on the gray-green color of Zeros posted on the research page (Lansdale, Graham, and others).
Now that Aero Masters no longer makes paints, how can I mix (or where can I get) colors to get the correct color match for my Type 11?

Thanks,
Blaine

Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai

Posted By: Tom Matlosz <mailto:slayer14@bellsouth.net?subject=Re: Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green pai>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 2:30 p.m.

In Response To: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green paint? (Blaine)

Blaine,

If you'd like to see what hairyokushoku looks like, go to your nearest Wal-Mart. In the paint section, they have color chips. Get cards #626 and 627. Hairyokushoku (J3) is between Wal-Mart paints "River Bank" (96273)and "Sycamore Maple" (96263). J3 is slightly more yellow than River Bank but not as yellow as Sycamore Maple.

Bear in mind, that is the color of unweathered relics from a full scale bird. I would add a little white (about 15-20%) for scale effect.

Tom Matlosz

Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green pai>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 3:55 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai (Tom Matlosz)

Hi Tom,

James Long sent me a Wal-Mart color which is quite close to the Iida color. On card 328 it is color 3285 'Glendive'. It's bit more tan. I grew up on the side of a ridge in the foothills of the Appalachians so I know what a sycamore is and I know what a maple is but I never saw a Sycamore Maple!

Confused in Austin

Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai

Posted By: Ryutaro Nambu <mailto:ryutaro.nambu@jal.co.jp?subject=Re: Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green pai>
Date: Sunday, 8 October 2000, at 6:15 a.m.

In Response To: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green paint? (Blaine)

Hi Blaine,

Greg Springer told me you were looking for a hairyokushoku mix for acrylic paints. Sorry for not writing earlier. I had some snags in my system.

Jim Lansdale kindly lent me a piece of relic taken from Iida’s machine crashed in the second wave of the Pearl Harbor attack. I tried to replicate the color by mixing Tamiya’s acrylic paints. I used only glossy primary colors. Here is my mix:

X2 White: 354 parts
X8 Yellow: 100 parts
X1 Black: 33 parts
X7 Red: 8 parts

You must be very precise about the amount of red. Start with yellow first, then add red to get what you may call a "trainer yellow" close to FS-12300, then black to get a dull khaki drab, and finally white to get the hairyokushoku of Iida’s machine.

Greg Springer and I compared the colors we made, and agreed that Greg’s mix of Testor's paints was only slightly reddish, and perhaps closer to the artifacts. So you might add just a bit more of red to my formula to get a dead-on color of the relics as of today.

Iida’s relics have more tinge of olive than many other relics, which are reported to be close to FS-16350. Lab tests confirm binder yellowing to a certain degree, but not to the extent that would have changed an ordinary gray to olive gray. To get what it may have looked in 1941, I suggest adding less yellow and red to compensate for the yellowing, and more white for scale effect. Enjoy.

Ryutaro Nambu

Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai

Posted By: Dave Pluth <mailto:dave@j-aircraft.com?subject=Re: Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green pai>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 9:22 p.m.

In Response To: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green paint? (Blaine)

Blaine,

I simply use Pollyscale Railroad colors Concrete. You may want to put the drop of Zinc chromate that Greg talks about in it to give it a hint of green, but it's a darn nice match and pretty close to scale (at least to my eyes).

-Dave

Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Where can I get 'Hairyokushoku' gray-green pai>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 5:27 p.m.

In Response To: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green paint? (Blaine)

Blaine,

Here is a Model Master enamel mix that matches parts of two Zero 21s shot down at Pearl Harbor:

20 parts SAC Bomber Tan # 1792
11 parts flat white # 1768
1 part Green Zinc Chromate # 1734

If you are building in 1/48th add 25% white to the total volume of this mix. If your model is 1/72nd make that 30% for scale effect. Cover the model with a clear gloss or semi-gloss top coat. I like Polyscale Acrylic. IHTH.

Cheers!

"Hairyokushoku" question for Dave and Greg

Posted By: Blaine <mailto:kotonk568@earthlink.net?subject='Hairyokushoku' question for Dave and Greg>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 10:57 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Where can I get "Hairyokushoku" gray-green pai (Greg Springer)

Thanks guys, but a couple of questions for you.

Dave,

I only saw Pollyscale Railroad "Old Concrete" color for sale by a model train internet vendor. Is it the same as the Pollyscale "Concrete" you mention?

Greg,

I'm terrified of enamels. I'm near brand spanking new to airbrushing and take almost half an hour to clean my single action Badger after using each acrylic color. I'd probably destroy my airbrush with enamels. Do you have any gray-green suggestions for acrylics?

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I just restarted modelling about a couple of years ago after after a 17 year hiatus (I'm 32). I have never used Pollyscale. I have only used Gunze, Tamiya and Aero Master acrylics. I have only airbrushed three models so far and am still working on mixures and thinning (the finish usually come out with a slight orange peel look). I'm going to try Aztek's single action airbrush because it doesn't need needle adjustments.

BTW: I have Gunze and Tamiya clear gloss. Do they need to be thinned before airbrushing. I'm not sure I can use all those fancy tricks (Future furniture polish, etc.) w/o destroying a 1/48 Type 21 that took me four (yes, four) months to put together!

Thanks for the help guys (and to any future idea givers too!),

Blaine

Re: "Hairyokushoku" question for Dave and Greg

Posted By: Greg Springer <mailto:gspring@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: 'Hairyokushoku' question for Dave and Greg>
Date: Wednesday, 4 October 2000, at 4:29 p.m.

In Response To: "Hairyokushoku" question for Dave and Greg (Blaine)

Hi Blaine,

Old Concrete is too brown. Use Windex to clean your acrylics. Don't use aftermarket Windex copies. They are not as effective. Don't worry about Tamiya or Gunze Sangyo drying in your brush. Windex will disolve them easily even after weeks. Polyscale is another story. It is much more durable and laquer thinner is need to remove it if it dries. I like Polyscale clear coats because they will protect the fragile Tamiya and GS paints. Polyscale tends to dry out on the needle tip of the brush so put a drop of liquid dishwashing detergent in the cup to keep them flowing freely. Ryutaro Nambu has posted a mix for Tamiya paints which gives a color similar to my mix. I'll e-mail him and ask him to post it here again.

Cheers!

Greg

Re: "Hairyokushoku" question for Dave and Greg

Posted By: Dave Pluth <mailto:dave@j-aircraft.com?subject=Re: 'Hairyokushoku' question for Dave and Greg>
Date: Wednesday, 4 October 2000, at 6:27 a.m.

In Response To: "Hairyokushoku" question for Dave and Greg (Blaine)

Blaine,

No. Old concrete is different from just plain concrete. If I remember right old concrete is darker.

As to the acrylics in your Badger, don't worry about it. Keep your pressure low and your mix thin and you won't have any problems spraying acrylics (Pollyscale Concrete is acrylic). Remember, your paint should be the consistancy of skim milk. There is also some flow assist type stuff that you can add to your paint to help as well.

-Dave
Fellow Badger User.

Red-brown primer

Posted By: Andreas <mailto:Hahn-Dreieich@t-online.de?subject=Red-brown primer>
Date: Wednesday, 13 September 2000, at 11:45 a.m.

Hi all!
Does anybody know if the red-brown primer was used in general as an undercoat? I'm just modeling an A6M5 and want to present it with some areas of chipped paint. So I don't know if to use some red-brown primer as an undercoat. Please help!

Andreas

Re: Red-brown primer

Posted By: Bill Turner <mailto:wturner@rclco.com?subject=Re: Red-brown primer>
Date: Thursday, 14 September 2000, at 6:40 p.m.

In Response To: Red-brown primer (Andreas)

The red brown primer was used in general, particularly on naval aircraft and was quite durable. The Planes of Fame air museum in Chino, California has an unrestored Betty bomber recovered from the south Pacific after 50 years in the jungle. It still has lots of red brown primer remaining.

Re: Red-brown primer

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Red-brown primer>
Date: Wednesday, 13 September 2000, at 2:05 p.m.

In Response To: Red-brown primer (Andreas)

Andreas -

Go to the "walkarounds" section of this board and look at the unrestored A6M's at Duxford. It looks to me as though the entire aircraft was primed in red-brown. I am not sure if that would be a general rule with A6M's or it is unique to this aircraft.

Good luck

- Grant

Re: Red-brown primer

Posted By: Ryan Toews <mailto:ritoews@mb.sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Red-brown primer>
Date: Thursday, 14 September 2000, at 9:51 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Red-brown primer (Grant Goodale)

Hello Andreas,
All the external parts of the Zeros I examined had the red -brown primer present.

Ryan

Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*>
Date: Monday, 2 October 2000, at 7:18 p.m.

Thanks to Tom MATLOSZ (who provided the relic sample), Azusa ONO (who provided the John FORD film clip), and David AIKEN (who provided the analysis) we can now compare the color of a documented A6M2 model 21 Zero in a contemporary color film with that of an existing relic.

The Nakajima built A6M2 model 21 Zero, s/n 646, built 27 February 1942 (as evidenced from an existing data plate from the wreck), was shot down during the battle of Midway on either Sand or Eastern Island (as debated). The wreckage was filmed burning by John FORD. David AIKEN has provided a color film clip on the NATS Project Board for comparison (see link below relic).

A piece of the same Zero (s/n 646) was given, by a veteran who was there, to Tom MATLOSZ who presented a smaller piece from the original for analysis (see scan below).

Jim Lansdale

Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*

Posted By: John R. Croxall <mailto:jrcroxal@mindspring.com?subject=Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 6:37 p.m.

In Response To: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Jim,

I have an idea concerning the Ford film of the Zero burning that I'd like to run past you. I believe that part of the film depicted in that clip (posted by David AIKEN on the Nats Project Board, see below) is a fake in the sense that it is not as it appears. That clip shows a gasoline type fire burning on the TOP of the Hinomaru way past the gas tank portion of the wing of that Zero (if indeed it was a Zero). It looks to me as if gasoline were poured over the sign of the rising sun and then lit for dramatic purposes. Elsewhere in that video of Midway by Ford (I have it) you will see a hinomaru that appears to be painted on the horizontal stabilizer of a Betty shown floating on the water at the shoreline to again drive home the point that this was a Jap wreck! Now, if that really is a Zero wing piece in that clip I still say that it is staged possibly with hole punched in the hinomaru and gas poured through them to the structure below so that when the gas is lit flames would appear to be coming from within that dreaded hinomaru! Therefore, color comparisons to that video are at the very least suspect. Somebody needs to comment on that wing structure too - it looks an awful lot like an AT-6 wing! One more thing, Mr. Ford has a history of staging things for dramatic effect - such as his Pearl Harbor attack video that begins on a "fake" note also - you know the Dauntless dive bombers with hinomarus painted on there wings to appear as the Japanese dive bomber they weren't! Keep in mind the atmosphere of the times when this film was made. I feel that that burning symbol of the empire of Japan is just too pat, too cute, to be taken for gospel! What say you?!

Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors

Posted By: Bill Turner <mailto:wturner@rclco.com?subject=Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors>
Date: Wednesday, 4 October 2000, at 12:37 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC* (John R. Croxall)

A fascinating idea about the burning wind & hinomaru. Ford did indeed have a way of staging things for very dramatic effect. Note General MacArthur boarding the PT boat in They Were Expendable. A famous line from one of is movies was also: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*

Posted By: Tom Matlosz <mailto:slayer14@bellsouth.net?subject=Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC*>
Date: Tuesday, 3 October 2000, at 2:44 p.m.

In Response To: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Jim,

Firstly, the A6M2 piece that I obtained via Cmdr Harry Ferrier, from which you have a sample, was definitely from the Eastern Island wreck, as Cmdr Ferrier, who flew with Bert Earnest in the only TBF to return, never set foot on Sand Island during the Battle of Midway. Mark Horan has also verified that the Eastern Island wreck was from an A6M2. I believe that the burning wreck depicted in the John Ford film is the Val which crashed on Sand Island.

Secondly, I do not at all agree with the colors as depicted in the scanned photo of the burning Sand Island wreck as posted on the bulletin board. We all know about affects of time on vintage color film. I have a copy of the John Ford film and the fuselage color is much more like the relic piece that I have. Video capture software programs can and do alter color dramatically. Does anyone know where the master copy of the John Ford Midway film is archived?

The bottom line from my vantage point is that the A6M2 relic from Eastern Island in my possession is definitely not J3, it is I3. You and I both agree that it is much more tan than any of the other A6M2 relics in your possession.

The color of my relic piece is dead on in the scan that you posted here. That (see image below) is not J3!

Tom Matlosz

Re: Relic from Eastern Island

Posted By: Mark E. Horan <mailto:mhoran@snet.net?subject=Re: Relic from Eastern Island>
Date: Wednesday, 4 October 2000, at 11:51 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Color Film Vs Relic Colors *PIC* (Tom Matlosz)

Gang;

I can verify everything that Tom states concerning the aircraft relic he has. As an aside to the issue, and for what it may be worth to the discussion, I offer the following on the losses sustained by the 107-plane Tomanaga Striking Force.

The Japanese attack plan called for the aircraft of Soryu [B5N2s] and Akagi [D3A1s] to attack Eastern Island while those of Hiryu [B5N2s] and Kaga [D3A1s] attacked Sand Island. Losses totaled 11 planes:

Hiryu Kanko, five B5N2s (Chutai-Shotai-plane)
1-3-1: shot down into the sea in the initial interception by F4F-3s of VMF-221s 5th Division
1-3-2: ditto
2-1-1: force-landed near Kure from damage received during the initial interception by F2A-3s of VMF-221s 1st Division
2-2-1: shot down by direct AA hit approaching Midway Atoll
3-2-1: force-landed in Kido Butai on return, crew rescued

Soryu Kanko, three B5N2s (Chutai-Shotai-plane):
1-41-3: shot down into the sea by F2A-3s of VMF-221s 4th Division
2-44-1: force-landed in Kido Butai on return, crew rescued
3-45-2: force-landed in Kido Butai on return, crew rescued

Akagi Kansen: one A6M2 (only one Chutai; Shotai-plane)
2-2: shot down by AA at 0640 while at extremely low altitude strafing the Eastern Island airstrip, crashed on land near the field

Kaga Kansen: one A6M2 (only one chutai; Shotai-plane)
3-2: disappeared in air combat with aircraft of VMF-221

Kaga Kanbaku: one D3A1 (Chutai-Shotai-plane:)
1-22-3: shot down by AA at 0641 during dive on Sand Island, crashed on Sand

These losses are documented in the Japanese air records (in my possession), including the location, time, and cause of the loss of the Akagi Zero (PO1c Iwama Shinaji, pilot) and the location, time, and cause of the Kaga Val (Sea1c Watanabe Ri-ichi (or Toshikazu), pilot, PO3c Kimura Noboru, passenger). No other aircraft were lost over land. Thus, there can be no doubt that the relic recovered by Harry Ferrier was from an A6M2 from the Akagi Kansen Buntai.

Hope this helps.

Re: 107 plane attack???

Posted By: Allan <mailto:Wildcat42@AOL.com?subject=Re: 107 plane attack???>
Date: Thursday, 5 October 2000, at 8:19 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Relic from Eastern Island (Mark E. Horan)

I've under the impression that the Midway Attack was a 108 plane attack. 36 Carrier Bombers from Carrier Division 1, 36 Attack Aircraft from Carrier Division 2 and 9 fighters from the 4 carriers of Kido Butai, making up 108 aircraft. Was one missing or a typed error??????

Re: 107 is correct

Posted By: Mark E. Horan <mailto:mhoran@snet.net?subject=Re: 107 is correct>
Date: Thursday, 5 October 2000, at 8:46 a.m.

In Response To: Re: 107 plane attack??? (Allan)

One Hiryu Kanko (B5N2) aborted and returned to the ship.

Cowl Blue-Black

Posted By: Mark Gran <mailto:Dogfight65@aol.com?subject=Cowl Blue-Black>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 12:13 a.m.

Does anyone out there have any good mixes for the cowl Blue-Black used on Japanese Aircraft?
Thanks to all,

Mark

Re: Cowl Blue-Black

Posted By: Tom Matlosz <mailto:slayer14@bellsouth.net?subject=Re: Cowl Blue-Black>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 7:27 a.m.

In Response To: Cowl Blue-Black (Mark Gran)

Mark,

I use enamel paints exclusively. My mix for Mitsubishi cowl blue-black is 50% Testors flat black and 50% Testors USN Dark Sea Blue. I use Testors Semi-Gloss lacquer as clear finish coat. Even though the cowls were finished in gloss paint, a gloss finish looks to cartoonish to me in 1/48 scale. Just my opinion.

Tom

Re: Cowl Blue-Black

Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <mailto:Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de?subject=Re: Cowl Blue-Black>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 1:48 a.m.

In Response To: Cowl Blue-Black (Mark Gran)

Hi Mark,

I use the following mix of Gunze paints:
H12 Flat Black 50 % + H 5 Blue 40% + H 1 White 10 %
Comparable mixes of paints by other manufacturers should
show similar results.
Looks great on the cowls of Mitusbishi-built A6M´s!

HTH,

Joern

Where to Get Munsell Color System

Posted By: Don N. <mailto:nelsondon@earthlink.net?subject=Where to Get Munsell Color System>
Date: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 2:53 p.m.

Over the years I've read sources citing the Munsell color sytem. Is there some way to get a copy of this much the same way one can a copy of the FS595 fan set or collection?

I thought I read somewhere that the Munsell system was very expensive, hundreds of dollars.

Thanks.

Don

Re: Where to Get Munsell Color System

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <mailto:pchalmers@carolina.rr.com?subject=Re: Where to Get Munsell Color System>
Date: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 5:12 p.m.

In Response To: Where to Get Munsell Color System (Don N.)

You can download some pretty decent free conversion software from Munsell - it's free !

I have input the "X Y Z" Illuminant C numbers for the FS595 colors from Appendix I to FS595 and the software displays a "fairly" accurate color - as good as you can expect from a video monitor. The software also gives you CMYK and RGB equivalents if you input Munsell or XYZ numbers.

Munsell Color Converter Download

MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES

Posted By: Greg Crabb <mailto:gcrabb62@hotmail.com?subject=MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES>
Date: Saturday, 9 December 2000, at 4:12 p.m.

Sorry if this has been covered before,but are there any new thoughts on the underside colors of these aircraft? Were the undersides silver laquer on the MAVIS/EMILY,or natural metal? Could any form of gray be possible? What about the Jill,Jack and Grace? I've read early J2M3 were Mitsu.gray, then changed later to bare metal...true??.I seem to remember an old FAQ here that indicated the "remains" of the GRACE at NASM looked like gray paint,but in all my photos of wartime aircraft,I would swear that shiny metal reflections can be seen.I'm pretty sure the JILL were mostly bare metal undersides, but was this true on early production models? Thanks in advance for any help!

Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES

Posted By: John MacGregor <mailto:JohnMacG6@hotmail.com?subject=Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES>
Date: Monday, 11 December 2000, at 7:15 a.m.

In Response To: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES (Greg Crabb)

I've just been thinking about doing asegawa's Mavis as an H6k4 in an early war scheme - I thought it was some kind of light grey overall. Is this wrong? am I mistaking weathered NM paint for light grey?

Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES

Posted By: François P. WEILL <mailto:frpawe@wanadoo.fr?subject=Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES>
Date: Monday, 11 December 2000, at 4:36 a.m.

In Response To: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES (Greg Crabb)

Hi Greg

This is not a very simple question to answer.

First we will deal with your question on Mavis (and Emily by the way).

Originally Mavis like any other metallic seaplane were aluminum PAINTED for a reinforced form of corrosion protect (even when all the new metallic land or carrier born planes were NMF).

It is extremely difficult to know if the Mavis painted with topside green in the field (all H6K4 in first line service)had any kind of new paint in the gray green range applied. Of which I personally doubt (purely speculative). It is likely that even the green used was not the Kawanishi variant of IJNAF green later found on factory camouflaged aircraft (my best guess: FS 34084 as the Kaga "Hospital Kate" analyzed here).

Many sources indicated that the next version (H6K5) were all factory camouflaged. So to say they were likely to bear the Kawanishi green (no specific reference but often described as in the very dark side of the IJNAF green range and bluer than the others). Unfortunately the undersurface color remains somewhat undetermined. Most of the authors give them a gray green finish... In that case it is likely they used the glossy variant found on N1K1 Kyofu even late in the war (FS 16350). They generally extend this belief to the H8K Emilies... However I have found a pic of an operational H8K2 Emily that presents a visibly aluminum doped undersurface (metallic reflections)... As most of the big planes owned by the IJNAF seem not to have received any camouflage paint (landplanes remaining NMF all the way there). I tend to consider more likely that Kawanishi flying boats remained aluminum doped underside but I have no definite proof it it. NMF on a seaplane is excluded anyway.

Now going to the Jake finish...

As you probably know, Jakes began their combat career with the "offensive finish" so they were integrally painted with some variant of the Hairyokushoku color (excepts their engine cowling and a scalloped design that prolonged it, in black gray). There is an ongoing discussion on the nature of the floatplane variant of this color. Some authors, from B&W pics think that the floatplane color was more akin to a true light gray (mainly for Petes)... I think this is not confirmed and mostly improbable. As we know (from relics) that Aichi Vals were painted either in I3 "mustard" color (described as like FS 16160) without primer under it of FS 16350 J3 color with primer, it is more likely that one or both this color was used. The proverbial "best guess" being probably 16350, as I don't believe no primer was used on a floatplane. When they received the defensive coat of topside green (early in 1942) it is most probable that the undersurface color remained the original color with field applied topside camouflage likely to be different (FS 34084 ?) from newer planes coming out of the Aichi factory with factory applied green (FS 34031 is generally considered the reference for the Aichi variant).

As it is notorious that on the contrary to landplanes the IJNAF seaplanes didn't change their undersurface color to the matte less resistant variants of undersurface color (example the Kyofus) it is most probable that the undersurface color remained in the glossy 16350 range up to the end of the war.

I insist on the fact it is purely speculative in the absence of relics.

I hope it helps

François

Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES

Posted By: Clark Hollis <mailto:Raidenhollis@cs.com?subject=Re: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES>
Date: Saturday, 9 December 2000, at 6:49 p.m.

In Response To: MAVIS/EMILY/JILL/JACK/GRACE UNDERSIDES (Greg Crabb)

Hi Greg,
According to the sources that I have seen, the undersides of most, if not all, Jacks, that were painted overall, were painted with a Mitsubishi gray that is very close to FS 36307. I recently painted a 1/72 scale Hasegawa Jack undersides with Testors MM Light Sea Gray and it looks good to me. I can't comment on the other machines that you mention, other than to say that I'd think that those made by Mitsubishi would have the same or very similar color on their undersides. HTH.

Clark

Aotake: What color is it?

Posted By: Micah Bly <mailto:micahbly@visi.com?subject=Aotake: What color is it?>
Date: Tuesday, 20 February 2001, at 10:16 a.m.

Anyone want to take a guess at a realistic Aotake color? I have two aotakes listed on the zero color charts, but neither one really resembles the photos I've seen of Aotake as applied on IJN aircraft. Perhaps the metallic part of it makes an accurate representation impossible, but I'd like to have something that looks a bit more like the real thing. The books seem to imply that it's impossible to ID the aotake as one specific color.

Anyone care to take a guess with Munsell, FS, or RGB numbers?

Zero Color Charts

Re: Aotake: What color is it?

Posted By: Ryan Toews <mailto:ritoews@mb.sympatico.ca?subject=Re: Aotake: What color is it?>
Date: Tuesday, 20 February 2001, at 3:03 p.m.

In Response To: Aotake: What color is it? (Micah Bly)

Hello Micah,
FS14109 is a reasonable approximation of the aotake on the piece I have in front of me but the mtallic aspects of it make this only a rough guide.

Re: Aotake: What color is it?

Posted By: Tom Hall <mailto:Hall023038@aol.com?subject=Aotake: What color is it?>
Date: Tuesday, 20 February 2001, at 12:46 p.m.

In Response To: Aotake: What color is it? (Micah Bly)

Good question.

I once asked the same question of a Japanese art teacher. She opened a fine set of colored pencils and took out three. They were green-yellows. However, other Japanese feel it is a green-turquoise. That there are two views is discussed briefly in one of the Model Art specials.

For a model, you may want to consider the type of airplane and look in the walkaround section of this website. If you cannot find color information about that airplane, you may have to make an educated guess about where the coating was visible and what color it was. Indeed, even in a few square
inches it might vary, depending on how the pigment settled as the paint dried. This is a basic problem of taking color measurements. Where do we measure?

Your book is right. It is not possible to narrow it to just one or two shades, and there is no easy answer to your question. It depends.

"Exposed" Interior colour

Posted By: Aghis Barberopoulos <>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2001, at 5:26 a.m.

Hello Everybody!

Another simple question about interior colours I am afraid. What was the most probable colour of the part of the fuselage visible under the canopy for navy fighters?

1. Same as the cockpit colour (aotake-blue green)
2. Bamboo green
3. Same as the primer
4. Same as the rest of the fuselage

I believe in some cases is (1) and in others is (2), while I added (3) and (4) as logical alternatives.
Is there a general rule for one to follow or does it depend on the aircraft and/or the period ?

I am a bit confused(nothing new of course), so I would most appreciate any pointers.

Re: "Exposed" Interior colour

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: 'Exposed' Interior colour>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2001, at 7:39 p.m.

In Response To: "Exposed" Interior colour (Aghis Barberopoulos)

I have in the past painted exposed interior colors as follows. For Early model A6M Zeroes I have used blue-green for exposed interior and for cockpit color. This was done as directed by the model paint sheet for it was a Monogram model. For late war fighters A6M5c Zero and N1K2-J Shiden
I have used exposed interior color same as exterior, and cockpit color blue-green. This was probably also as directed per the model build sheet or I may have looked at some photos.

However, interior photos of the National Air and Space Museum A6M5 seem to show dark green or same as exterior exposed interior color and a olive drab cockpit interior color. The planes of fame A6M5 appears to have a olive drab exposed interior and cockpit. I have also seen some restoration photos that appear to show a grayish color. However I just thought I might mention what I have used in the past.

Cruiser K

Re: "Exposed" Interior colour

Posted By: Grant Goodale <mailto:grant.goodale@sympatico.ca?subject=Re: 'Exposed' Interior colour>
Date: Monday, 29 January 2001, at 11:54 a.m.

In Response To: (Aghis Barberopoulos)

Aghis

The colour of the cockpit decking could be influenced by the aircraft manufacturer and by the date. As I have found, there are not very many hard rules about this sort of thing for Japanese a/c. Any overall recommendation can be disproved by a single photo!

It was not that common to have aotake cockpit interiors. Again, there are exceptions, especially late in the war.

To my knowledge, the cockpit decking would be painted in one of three schemes:

1. Cockpit interior colour (bamboo for Nakajima, mostly green for others)

2. Upper surface exterior colour

3. Cowling colour (blue-black or black.

FWIW

- Grant

Re: "Exposed" Interior colour

Posted By: François P. WEILL <mailto:frpawe@wanadoo.fr?subject=Re: 'Exposed' Interior colour>
Date: Tuesday, 30 January 2001, at 12:32 a.m.

In Response To: Re: "Exposed" Interior colour (Grant Goodale)

Dear friends,

I think a FAQ should be created concerning interior colors.

In fact it was closely linked to the manufacturer and to the period.

I won't go here into the pre-war mostly fabric covered times as few information is available.

Aotake (the fresh bamboo color) which could have a green or a blue dominant (independent from the manufacturer)was NOT properly a paint but a clear anti-corrosion varnish tinted by blue or green pigments (for control of application) which was to be applied on all the internal side of the metallic revetment. It looked like a metallic paint because of its translucence when applied on the aluminum base. It was supposed to be applied everywhere (including the cockpit (and all living quarters).

But it is a MISCONCEPTION to think it was visible in the cockpit (and living quarters) area of most IJNAF planes.

In the late 30's, each manufacturer devised its own "cocpit color" which was applied OVER the Aotake protective coat (which acted in this case like a primer). On some big planes (like G3M and G4M) this color was sometimes extended to all internal areas visible in normal use (i.e. : wheel wells and internal sides of undercarriage traps).

This practice extended up to the late war years when simplified procedures were used to cope with the required output, the lack of qualified manpower and the consequences on raw material availability of the allied blockade. Then and ONLY THEN, some aircraft types cockpit area had Aotake visible in the cockpit area. Nakajima was one manufacturer concerned (but on Zeros) and according to relics and surviving aircraft usually let the cockpit area in Aotake but painted the seat external dk. green (34077) and any horizontal surfaces in the cocpit area was covered with gray black antiglare paint. Naval Air Arsenal went even further with solid Aotake interiors (B7A "Grace" for example).

Be aware of the fact however that Aotake WAS NOT A COCKPIT COLOR for most of the war and that some aircraft (Zeros and seaplanes for example) NEVER used it as a cockpit color even at war's end.

Mitsubishi used a color which was a green near to USN interior green but a tad darker.

Nakajima used a yellowish green much lighter than Mitsubishi color

Aichi seem to have used a rather dark green (see the post on D3A2 interior color) and may-be a lightened RLM 02 gray-green on Seiran floatplanes.

Kawanishi used a kind of light apple green (rather vivid).

Air Arsenals specific internal shade is unknown for sure but has ben often described as identical to Mitsubishi interior color as long as they used it.

Add to this than a number of cockpit "accessories" came from sub-contractors which used their own colors (mostly in the green range). For example a lot of throttle quadrants are notorious for their color akin to RAF aircraft gray-green.

As for the Zero, notice that the surfaces under the windscreen and the canopy were most of the time (if not systmeatically at factory level) finished the cowling color: Mitsubishi blue-black or Nakajima gray-black.

It must be emphasized the cockpit color was linked to the actual manufacturer of the plane and not the parent company.
This is important for example as far as the Zero is concerned as Nakajima built Zeros used the Nakajima yellowish green inside and not the Mitsubishi color...

Speaking of the Zero, remember that if Aotake was generally used as the visible color in wheel well area, Mitsubishi had the habit to paint the auxilliary traps of the main undercarriage the same color as undersurface on the internal side but Nakajima used Aotake at this place.

But PLEASE stay away from the old myth of Aotake being a cockpit color for all IJNAF planes.

Hope it helps.

François